Water Hammer and Venting

Andy Z

This site is WONDERFUL! I will get right to it...

I have a one pipe steam boiler system in Kansas City. I have a symphony of water hammer and hissing when the heat comes on. I ?? have potential problem areas.

1) Cold radiator. It is the furtherest away from the boiler. It rarely gets more than 1/2 heated.

2) Broken valve handle on the Cold radiator. I have had the radiator taken off, and it the valve is wide open...the handle is just broken off.

3) Upon startup, I hear a "gargling" sound in two of the 2nd story radiator pipes. Including the cold radiator.

4) The radiator vents hiss loudly. I have recently replaced all of the vents on the radiators (9) with Hoffman 1A adjustable vents. I am still tweaking the settings, but not much luck

5) I have one Hoffman 75 main vent. It is located near the boiler at the end of the run. The pipes basically make a big square around my basement with risers to each radiator off this one main. Walking it off it is 27ft x 15ft x 27ft by 15ft. Total of roughly 84 feet.

6) My main lines were insulated with cheap water heater blanket insulation. I have since started replacing the cracked aluminum insulation with R6...water blanket insulation.

My goal is to heat my house more quickly with no water hammer, gargling, or hissing. Could any of these things be keeping me from my goals?

Thanks again. I really can't believe this site is out here. LOVE IT!

nicholas bonham-carter

kansas city steam probs

i hope that your main pipe insulation is fiberglass-whether it be pre-made pipe insulation, or blankets of fiberglass insulation carefully wrapped around the pipe [this method is not always approved by the experts, but is better than nothing!]. bubble wrap will not work.
next you should check your pressure, and make sure that it is is well below 16 ounces.
next i would re-install your hoffman vent with a ball valve before it, so that you can remove the vent without danger [or less]; and see how much more quickly the main heats up with the ultimate vent-an open pipe.
post some pix here of the supply and return piping around your boiler and the pros here will see if there could be any other reason for the problems you are having.--nbc

Andy Z

I have attached some pix to help. Some additional info...I have had the boiler tuned up each summer, and each time the boiler has been given a clean bill of health. It is about 8 years old too. That is why I assume it is in the pipes or vents...but honestly have no clue.

Let me know if these pix do not help. Thanks!

[Deleted User]

Do you have Dan's books? (See "A Steamy Deal" at the bottom of the page) They're a must for anyone who owns a steam system. If you don't want to spring for all 3 books, get the one called "We got Steam Heat" as it's a good starting place . Dan's books really helped me get my one pipe steam system straightened out. I was tearing my hair out until i ran across Dan's book and this site.

nicholas bonham-carter

k.C. STEAM PROBS

the hoffman vent is in a vulnerable position as it can be water-hammered straight up the vertical return pipe underneath it. if there is no way to move it, put an arrangement of elbows and nipples under it so the water cannot have a straight shot up its backside, [and it may already be to late for mr. hoffman-R.I.P.].check it out by putting a ball valve underneath, and seeing if the steam rises more quickly with no vent on.
on "riser to 2nd storey cold rad" check the pitch of the horiz. pipe shown--use a good magnetic level.you may have a low spot trapping just enough water to interrupt the flow of steam over the condensate.
maybe some of the other pros can critique the steam main, and certainly you can compare the recommended piping layout from the mfg. [actually dunkirk ] with what is there. improper steam piping causes all sorts of problems.
don't forget to get dan's book--it will be an invaluable source of information!--nbc

ttekushan_3

steam outlet piping

Attached is your photo highlighted where the steam outlet and "equalizer" piping is screwed up. Fortunately, it looks relatively easy to correct. The existing arrangement does not dry the steam at all. Water droplets will go throughout the system causing problems of all kinds.

I agree strongly with the suggestion that you purchase Dan's books. You'll be able to understand why this piping arrangement is wrong. The instruction manual for this boiler undoubtedly shows the correct way, but was disregarded by the installer. Any boiler installation manual for steam boilers of any kind will show proper piping layouts. This is a big no-no.

Correct this first so that you can start with high steam quality. I'd guess that many if not most of the problems disappear.

[Deleted User]

Andy- From the pictures I could tell your boiler is a Lennox.
What is the model number and do you have the installation manual?

nicholas bonham-carter

typo in lennox manual

from another post--wasn't there a problem with lennox's incorrect piping dia. as opposed to dunkirk? dunkirk made the boiler, so their manual would be correct.nbc

Andy Z

Thanks for all the help. Some follow up questions since much of this is greek to me.

1st...I am purchasing Dan's book (if not all 3) this weekend.

2nd...It is a Lennox Series PSB-6D and Model GSB8-187E

3rd...How do I find an expert that can fix the "equalizer" piping that was pictured? I have had my Heating and Plumbing company (Neal Harris) working on the boiler. Is it safe to assume that they would not be able to help since they have not spotted this problem in years?

4th...Can someone point me to what "elbows and nipples" are so that I can avoid the vertical installation issues? Also...what is, and how do I install, a ball valve underneath the existing vent? If I am even understanding that correctly.

5th...If it is a low spot on the riser, how do I fix it? Just raise the riser a bit?

I am sure some of, if not all of, these answers are in Dan's book, but getting answers from the forum is really exciting. Thank you so much.

David Nadle

Stuff you can try before you mess with the pipes

1. Insulate the near boiler piping above the waterline.

2. Listen to the main vent on startup. If it hisses, then gets hot and quiet, it's OK.

3. Replace the vent on the cold radiator with a faster one.

4. Put a level on the upstairs rads and make sure they're pitched towards the pipe.

5. Check your pressuretrol. It should be set to cut-out at 1.5 psi or lower, and cut in at .5 or lower.

6. If your rad vents are hissing loudly on startup you need more/bigger main vents. If they're hissing loudly when hot your pressure is too high. If your pressuretrol is set like above and the vents are hissing when hot you probably have a clogged pigtail.

nicholas bonham-carter

rock chalk boiler blues

i would go to the discussion below of a fault in the lennox literature-maybe that's why your boiler was imperfectly piped:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=418675&_#Message418675


talk to your installer when you find the corrected installation diagram [from dunkirk?].study the differences in "as-is" from "installed", and determine how to rectify.
if he is a friend of dave lennox, he might get some help from them to correct the piping.

maybe he could help you test the vent [the ball valve makes it safer to remove the valve while steaming], and install a real 0-30 oz. low pressure gauge [gaugestore.com].
as time goes on you will take great pleasure in doing most of the maintainace yourself, but for now, perhaps best to have professional assistance--nbc

[Deleted User]

Hi Andy-

I tried to find an installation manual on the Lennox site and didn't have any luck. As NBC mentioned there was a post a while back on this site that mentioned that Dunkirk and Lennox units are made by the same manufacturer.(?)

I looked over your pictures and want you to check something. On your boiler, check the connection where the steam leaves the boiler. Then go to the other side of the boiler and is there a plugged threaded fitting that mirrors (same size, exact same location) the fitting where your steam now leaves the boiler? If there is a plugged fitting this is where a second steam pipe should be connected.

These boilers are put together in sections, like slices of bread, bolted together. A smaller boiler is made up of just a couple of sections and on the larger ones, they just add additional sections. The very smallest boiler may have only one steam pipe connection but generally anything larger than that, has two (or more) steam pipe connections. It is very important to use all the steam connections available. (Dan's books go into this so I'll leave that to your reading)

The following may not be applicable to your unit. This is just a "shot" in the dark" so please keep that in mind when you are looking at it.

This is a link to the Dunkirk installation manual.

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/397.pdf

See Page 6 and look at Diagram # 6A Dual Piping. Also take a look at Page 5 as it depicts a smaller single pipe unit.

Here is a link to the Dunkirk boilers. I think your boiler might be (again a shot in the dark!!)similar to Dunkirk Plymouth II Series

http://www.dunkirk.com/product_detail.asp?key=50

I maybe way off the mark on this but if nothing else it will give you an idea of how a boiler should be plumbed.
Keep in mind that factory installation diagrams are generally minimal and can be improved on using a drop header configuration ( I'll also leave that to Dan's books)

I'm a home owner not a steam pro and was in a similar situation as yours. My system wasn't working properly and I was getting the run around from my service guys. I thought at first I was getting ripped off but after reading Dan's books have realized that there just aren't many people (heating pros or home owners) that understand steam systems.
Most understand burners but that's where the knowledge stops. Steam Systems are really easy and great to have once you understand them. Dan's books will put you on the right trsck . They sure did for me.

Andy Z

Dead on. The opposite side of my boiler does have a plugged hole that matches the steam pipe. I have left a pic below. I also snapped a photo of my pressure. This was taken when the boiler was not running.

Seems I have a large amount of issues in front of me. If I have someone come out and add the second steam pipe, I assume it would marry up with the original pipe...right? If I do that, would it make sense to have them fix the equalizer piping at the same time.

So my second step (after buying the books) is to find an installer that can shore up my system. Am I just looking for a plumber that specializes in steam? Please give me some suggestions on what I can search for in the phone book to find the right resource.

Thanks again!

[Deleted User]

Andy-
Great ! You found a second steam port. This needs to be piped into your system otherwise it's sort of like having a V6 engine where only one bank of cylinders is working - not efficient and hard on the the system! Without the second steam connection you are probably getting wet steam which is the cause of your problems. You'll see a big improvement when you have this straightened out.

Is the Dunkirk the same as your Lennox? You should be able to take the Dunkirk measurements in the manual as to where boiler openings are and compare them to the measurements on your Lennox boiler.

Your pressure gauge is required by code so leave it there. What you will want to do at some time is get a new gauge that reads low pressure(0- 5lbs)and add that. Single pipe steam systems are designed to run at under 2 PSI. The lower the pressure, the more efficient the system. There is no sense using fuel to build pressure.


LOL- Actually your second step should be reading Dan's books which you just bought!

Dan's books which will give you a whole new understanding about steam. I would then take my time and with your new understanding, map out and analyze your own steam system till you understand the design and purpose of each part. (Dan's books explain all this. They're easy reading by the way, crammed full of information and not just dull technical manuals)

I would also study pictures of steam systems that other people have done till you understand the merits of the design of these systems. A good source for this is to look at the "steam pros" that posts on this site. Some of them have a link ("Learn more about this professional...") at the end of their replys. Click on these these as some pros have posted pictures of the jobs they have done.

Here is another good site:

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetPage?pid=1

which is G.W. Gill Plumbing & Heating. Study the information and pictures on steam at this site. (especially the header/equalizer which the pipes coming out of the boiler are attached to). If steam heating was a religious organization, Gerry and Steve would rank at least as Archbishops and more likely Cardinals. They are in the Cleavland area which unfortunately does neither me or you any good.

Study up on the terms "drop headers" and "swing headers" (Dan's books cover`this) and see how these are applied in the different pictures of systems.

Until you've absorbed all this I wouldn't be in any hurry to change anything. Steam is easy to learn and with the help of Dan's books, the learning curve is very fast.
You'll shortly be in a position to either do the modifications yourself or be able to direct a plumber /heating man to build the system you want. If nothing else with your new knowledge you'll immediately know whether the person working on your system is qualified or not and believe me really qualified steam people are very hard to find. As Dan's book's title says, steam heating is a "Lost Art" which is really too bad because it is a really simple, neat and efficient system when it is working properly.

Andy Z

You are hitting this on the head. I let the system get really hot and noticed two things.

#1 - I don't feel any air coming out of my Hoffman vent on the main. It is warm, but not nearly as hot as the small vents on my rads.

#2 - I opened the release valve when it was heating, and it was full of water. After 20 seconds or so, it was empty of water, but then started spitting steam. I think this is what you mean by "wet steam" mentioned in your reply ("Without the second steam connection you are probably getting wet steam which is the cause of your problems. You'll see a big improvement when you have this straightened out.")

I bought the book, but I got it online...so I don't have it yet.

Unknown

Great ! You got the books! They'll really help you. It will take a couple of days to get them as they come by regular mail. They're easy reading and will soon bring you up to speed on steam systems.

You might want to take a look at this Thread and read through it as it is similar to you situation:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=60613&mc=29


I posted a note on there about swing joints and drop headers
which might be beneficial in your situation. On there I also posted this link :

http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=360&Step=30

which might be of interest to you. This is a drop header done on a two port boiler with side ports similar to yours.
Be careful when testing for steam. It can give you a really bad burn.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

How the pipes should look

I have installed a number of the Dunkirk units and here are a couple of pictures. Dunkirk does not require both risers to be installed, but on anything over 150,000 input, the header is really doing alot of work. On yours it looks like not only did they only use one riser, but bushed it down to 2 inch....that's not allowed. Riser and header are a minimum of 2 1/2 inch pipe. You also have no header. both of these have drop headers, not a requirement but they make the work easier and work better to make dry steam.

Unknown

Wow! Nice work! BoilerPro, I especially like your well thought out drains and skimmer setup. What's the old saying? "A picture is worth a thousand words?"

Unknown

Wow! Nice work ,BoilerPro! I especially like your drains and skimming setup! What is the old saying? "A picture is worth a thousand words?"

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Thank You...

I am lucky to have some customers trust me enough to do it right rather than just look for the cheapest bid...even though sometimes they end up being the same. They are like gold and I am always happy to go out to help if they are having problems, not matter how late it is. Of course, since they had it done right in the first place, they usually don't have problems!

Around here(the Wall, there are many, many contractors that create wonderful work. Its always a priviledge to post here.

Boilerpro

Andy Z

Found the installation guide, and everyone was right. The As-Is does not match the picture. I see my hartford loop, but I am missing the equilizer piping. I noted above where TerryT said it might be easy to correct. I have schedule 3 pros to come out and tell me what they see. I plan to keep most of this thread to myself and use it as my secret weapon to determine who knows...and who does not.

Here is my installation guide with what I think is the problem. Hopefully one of these pros will see the same problem and also suggest using the second pipe.

Should I be expecting hundreds...or thousands...when it comes to near boiler piping?

Thanks again everyone