Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

alang

Ultra 155 Series 2 b-25 error and low temp

New to this board - but read all the thread on the Series 3. We have a <2 yr old Ultra 155 Series 2 that has started to misbehave over the past several days:

LCD shows b-25 'Soft lock out for Outlet temp rising too quickly'. Boiler shuts down and re-starts, but is failing to reach the target temp of 190 - swings between 90-150.

LCD shows Code 6 'Burner off as target temp has been reached', and LCD shows say 122, and cycles again. Each time it cycles, it might reach a higher temp, which is where the 150 comes from, but then may drop down to 120 again. If the DHW aquastat calls for heat, it can chug along and reach proper target temp, or could also show b-25 - almost random.

As it has been performing fine until now, I can't see that it is a flow/mechanical fault, all circs are operating, and I suspect the control board or a sensor.

The system has DHW and 3 zones on circulators - loops are approx same length, Grundfos 3 speed circulators, and as there are BTU meters in two of the loops, it is possible to see the flows per loop: 2.5 g/min on slow, to 4.6 g/min on fast - changing flow does not affect the problem.

The boiler is under a maintenance contract with a local Weil Mclain agent, and I have a non-urgent service call in - but to be 'kind', I thnk I know more about the system than they do - hence this query to see if anybody has similar experience or suggestions, so I can have an in 'intelligent' discussion with their techs .....

Research shows the control module is a Honeywell MCBA, which is used by many manufacturers, and it is possible that other eqpt may also have shown similar symptoms if the control board/sensors were faulty ??

Last point: there is an outdoor temp sensor for reset. Makes no difference to the problem if disconnected. so not related to that sensor ... ?

any feedback welcomed,

Alan

Tony_42

series 2

Could be the return or supply sensor on the block.

Could also be a circ starting to crap out or air in the system.

alang

thanks for feedback:

damn thing just ran for about 12 hrs without a problem.

ie. reaching target temp of 190 both on DHW and space heating loops - and no b-25.

now it's just reaching 120-130, and saying it's at target.

so don't think it's air (Spirovented etc) - and the circs seem to be fine (no bearing noise etc)

so seems to be random electronic behaviour ? as u say sensors, or the control board.

Tony_42

ODR ?

If ODR is connected your target temp won't be 190 unless it's a design day.

The MCBA control is pretty reliable.

Amy L

W-M 3-230 lockouts

I recently installed a series 3 #230, with DHW 60G.

Have intermittent error and lockout 'water too fast'.
Have a 14gpm pump on the boiler, and (3) taco 007 (7gpm) pump on the zones. Not counting for reductions due to turbulence, etc...the zones tally 21gpm and the boiler only 14gpm.

Can this be part of the error and lockout if all 3 zone pumps are in operation ?

Tony_42

LO

It has to happen 5 times in a single call for heat.

Have your installer come back and reprogram it. If he calls his rep he should get the answer.

The internet is not the place for programming particulars to be published.

Greg_49

\"You're the beaut \" - you sure are........

(Sigh….) Look who comes out from under his rock when nobody even addressed him or mentioned his name. I’m trying to think back to when I took psychology in college and I believe that stems from guilt of conscience and feelings of inadequacy. To add insult to injury, he posts pictures trying to prove himself (yowza!...look at sexy Freddie flexing his saggy muscles). Mr. perfect couldn’t even dress the wiring instead of leaving it all hanging in mid-air and the sensor and zone valve wiring running about like the Ronzoni factory gone awry.

Let me reduce myself to your level for a minute….(ugh…ouch…it hurts my back to crouch so low). In my 30+ year career I have installed more hydro-electro-mechanical systems, designed, built, tested, installed and programmed more CPU and ladder logic control systems in more parts of the world than you will ever do the rest of your life. I will spare you the embarrassment of the even more significant part of my career life. Yet, you wish to assume that I am some TV antenna installer or audio engineer.

Quoted: “and has no problems because it was sized properly and installed properly.” Funny, even after proving my problem with documented observations, data and discussions with the manufacturer, and the testimonies of several people on this forum (I assume they are all wrong in your eyes too) you still insist that the manufacturer didn’t have a problem and my problem was my fault. This just proves your stubborn narrow-minded ignorance that I mentioned in the last post. You were the one who got lucky, yours just happened to work in your particular installation. Now go back under your rock instead of attempting to insult people who need problems resolved and others who enjoy learning and doing projects themselves, free the forum up for what it was designed for….to help people, not bash them.

Again, people like you with no clue crack me up!!

Freddie my dear boy….GO SHOVE IT UP YOUR “PROFESSIONAL” FLUE PIPE!

Timco

Greg,

Did not see a BFP, and many valves with no caps. How did your inspection go? Sorry, but the install is pretty messy. Most here have fit more in a tighter space and neater. Remember, WM said to change it ONLY because it was piped wrong in the first place. Who sold you the boiler? Do you have a permit or gas certification to do this as an independent?

Tim

Greg_49

Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

Tim,

Yes, I have complied with the laws in my locale. There is a backflow preventer, as well as a flow check upstream of the BFP. Also there is an external overtemp lock-out as required by my city's code.

No certification is necessary to install a heating system. I had all permits filed with my buildings department and gas upgrade done by a licensed contractor. My local utility has inspected it with no problem.

Yes...it looks messy in the picture due to the fact that the install was not complete, I have since built a wall around it to form a boiler room, have a nice epoxy floor and all my electrical and LV wiring is wired up permanent and neat now that the boiler is working properly! Also, I piped it back the way I had it before the Weil McLain general tech said I should change it....because esentially it was the same. So, yes...it is complete and neat and the back wall is even painted so it looks nice and pretty.

Thanks for your concern and support for Fred-Head.

Greg

Tony_23

You're so cute

All of your little analogies must make you feel real smart after you've taken 20 minutes to think them up. VERY impressive. About as impressive as your pics of YOUR ONE boiler.
I don't believe for a minute you did any of the work pictured in your recent post. If you did, you wouldn't have done anything resembling the abortion in your original picture. Building a wall around it only covers it up, it doesn't make it square, plumb or level. How come no pics of THAT ? I don't care about your excuses for why it looked that way. If you knew what you were doing, you would've been able to pipe it so it wouldn't be a problem. Just like I did. No, that's NOT luck.
As far as my MC cable, do you think I should've run EMT ? Do you think 18-24" is too far to "hang" ? Do you think anybody who counts really gives two craps what you think ?
You've changed your story about what you do and your experience level twice now. Your credibility is crap. Your obviously rookie install, coupled with the fact that you came here to **** and proceeded to insult professionals and attack anyone who criticized you tells all that you are neither a tradesman, professional, nor mature enough to have been in anything for 30 years. You try to imply that you've had years of experience in a similar field. The "little things" give you away.
Go back to "drift tuning glycol cooled receivers". That would be under that dog pile you're familiar with. I'll take my rock any day

You remind me of the Country song that says, "I'm so much cooler on-line".

TonyBal

Ultra 230 supply too fast

I am having the "water supply too fast" lockout once every 10 days or so. I was told by my equipment supplier to lower the tempt to 175 and adjust the outdoor gauge to be more accurate. this worked for a while maybe but I'm getting the same result. It's not a big deal to reset but if I'm away I don't want the pipes to burst from no heat. Is there anyone out there who can come by and fix this. I live in Bergen county NJ. Please reply to neil@wainlands.com thank you

Tony_23

where ?

Where is your installer ? He should be the one to program it.

TonyBal

My installer is a super in a building and a friend of mine and is not the most experienced at these new boilers. His piping is good but I think this is a little over his head.

TonyBal_2

Any new news on the Ultra 3 lockout? My two day old 105 says "Temp rising too quicly". The Weil rep said a swap of the computer is required. Is this an easy fix?

TonyBal_2

How is this fix working so far?

TonyBal_2

Still working great?

Jim P

Yes

Changing out the computer takes about 10-15 min. I just had to do one on friday.

Thanks,

Jim

pjc_2

Weil Mclain Ultra

What amazes me is why anyone would put this stuff in a house. Your yearly gas bills on average are not great enough to warrant pay back on a (generous) 10% fuel savings. Weil-Mclain has over engineered their boilers since the introduction of the ridiculous gv gas boiler. If you look at the specs on the ultra, you'll find that the highest efficiencies are only achieved with low temperature systems. Having been at this for 30 years, I have found that the Weil-Mclain CGS (direct vent sealed combustion) is a far better value. The controls are straight forward as is the piping. It achieves efficiencies of 84%. When you factor in the cost of the ultra and the extra expense for piping, it is not really a wise choice.

Tony_23

I guess

I guess if you don't understand the difference between a MODULATING/condensing boiler, you would see it the way you do.

However, once you understand that the savings aren't limited to the 9% garnered by condensing only, and real-world savings is typically in the 40% range, you'd see it IS worthwhile.

If you're only saying this because you like the simplicity of installation, and/or you really believe that 84% rating (at 140* supply), keep on truckin' cuz everybody's got their place in the chain

Greg_49

Still running great!

Mine is still working great!! Absolutely zero faults since I installed the new board back at the end of November.

Very simple to change, 4 screws for the control board, 4 screws for the front panel and everthing connects to the controller with Phoenix type connector plugs (except the high voltage wire for the ignitor, it has a spade connector). I would say 15-20 minute fix max.

Greg

Brent_7

Ultra Series 3 shut-downs

I have read through some of the postings about the Ultra Series 3 and the issues presented. I have been having some of the same issues with my boiler. It has gone into shut down numerous times and the screen indicates "sensor error". I tried looking in the manual and it says something about verifying the set points of the sensors but that is way beyond my ability.

I originally thought like the one guy that posted that it had to do with my DHW tank as it seemed to happen after my DHW tank was heated and then a call for heat happened. I disconnected the DHW signal to see if the system would shut down and it has but not as frequently.

I have set up the system myself and would like to fix whatever it is myself only I am not sure where to turn without spending a lot of money for someone else to figure it out. I am attaching a picture of the set-up if anyone would like to take a stab at the issue, it would be greatly appreciated.

Bill_112

outdoor temp. sensor

Has been working great since install. Saving lots of gas while it changes water temperature to coincide with the outdoor temp. Will the heater also change water temperature when return water gets close to supply temp.- in other words the house is not pulling off much heat from the radiators. Is this what modulation refers to. Thanks for putting up with these basic questions- I had a professional do the install I just like knowing how it works and appreciating the complexities. Hydronic engineering is fascinating - you guys are brilliant!

Greg_49

Ultra Series 3 shut-downs

Brent,

First, If you are not familiar or uncomfortable with using an ohmmeter or playing in the menus, then you really need to find someone who is.

There should be enough information in the manual for you to troubleshoot this kind of problem if you know the basics. The sensors are resistive type sensors (they change their resistance value with temperature change). There is a table in the manual (page 85) which shows you what the sensor resistance should be at various temperatures. This is measured with an ohm meter.

The Flue and Heat Exchanger Outlet Temperature sensor both have dual sensor elements for safety. They are like 2 sensors in 1 physical package. The 2 sensor values (off each physical sensor) are compared in the boiler CPU and should always read within 10 degress of each other. If they exceed that, then the boiler will fault and give sensor errors. In fact, you can see a snapshot of all the temperature readings when the fault happened in the diagnostic history. The table on page 68 and 69 of the manual show you how to see the temperature history at the time of the fault. It will show you 2 temperatures for the flue, and 2 for the supply. It shows 2 temperatures for each because of the dual sensor elemnts just mentioned. Check them and see if there is a greater than 10 degrees reading (between the 2 values shown for each sensor) on either the flue or supply temperature.

Air or crud in the system can cause false readings and faults caused by differences between the 2 readings obtained on the supply sensor. Is your system purged good and clean?

The external sensors (eg:outdoor reset and the 2 that are strapped to the pipe) should not cause a fault like you are seeing, but you could disconnect them (temporarily as a process of elimination)and power cycle your boiler so the CPU re-detects that they are not there. Then you can see if it still gets sensor errors. You can run the boiler without the external sensors without any safety fears as they are somewhat "optional" for adding greater efficiency to the boiler.

It is even possible that a sensor wire is loose at the plug on the sensor end or the CPU end, and the CPU thinks the sensor has been unplugged from the system intermittently. Just some stuff to check out.

I've tried to explain how the sensors work and some things to check but if you are not familiar with troubleshooting these type of systems it will be difficult at best for someone to walk you through it over the internet.

Good Luck.

Greg

TonyBal

Replaced Board -New Problem

My contractor put a new board in yesterday. I am still getting a "Temp Rising Too Quickly" code. I believe the NEW problem is the System Return temp is exceeding the System Supply temp by too much. Here are the temps for the last four lockouts. I will list them as supply/return.
126/135, 116/124, 127/135, 124/136. All lockouts are occuring when FinTube Baseboard Zone is calling. We have three baseboard zones on circulators working hrough a TACO SR504 controller. Also have a DHW and radiant zone. witnessed the last one and it occcured on start up after being off for ten minutes.Using all Grundfos 3 speed circulators running at top speed.
Thanks. You guys are great!

Bill_112

outdoor temp. sensor


Has been working great since install. Saving lots of gas while it changes water temperature with the outdoor temp. Will the heater also change water temperature when return water gets close to supply temp.- in other words the house is not pulling off much heat from the radiators. Is this what modulation refers to. Thanks for putting up with these basic questions- I had a professional do the install I just like knowing how it works and appreciating the complexities. Hydronic engineering is fascinating - you guys are brilliant!

Rob_56

Brent

Weil Mclain calls for the external supply and return sensors to be at least 6 pipe diameters from the boiler connection tees
It looks like your external sensors are on the primary piping. It's hard to tell with the picture but I don't see the closely spaced tees.
Is the dhw tank somewhere above the boiler?

Rob_56

Greg
Have you had any additional lockouts. I'm still getting some ever since I added a loop for my garage. Now when it's really cold and I get a call for heat from that zone it goes to a hard lockout. I guess that when the 40 to 50 degree garage zone water mixes with the boiler water the supply and return sensors get conflicting info. I'm going to try to max out the pre pump setting for that zone and hopefully that would help. Maybe I need a buffer tank. Any other suggestions would be appreciated

Rob

Greg_49

outdoor temp. sensor

Bill,

The scope of the question is a bit foggy...but i'll take a stab at answering it. "Modulation" refers to the fact that the boiler "modulates" the flame by a variable gas valve and varying the blower speed. This allows the boiler to adjust its flame (or BTU input) as it reaches a target supply temperature. This avoids cycling and since the temperature of the circulated water is so consistent, your zones will reach their comfort level faster.

This is versus a conventional boiler which reaches the supply temperature (at a pre-determined max flame rate) then will shut down for a period until the supply reaches a differential of say...-15-20 degrees or so of its target...then fires back up at a max flame rate to heat the water again.

The "Modulating" boiler therefore, can maintain a very consistant water temperature through it's heating zones by maintaining a very low flame rate to keep the circulated water hot. I believe the Weil Mclain Ultras will "Modulate" down to 20% of their BTU Input.

The outdoor reset sensor, automatically lowers your boilers supply "Target" temperature for warmer weather so that you can better maintain your comfort level in your zones rather than having the boiler cycle at say 180 degree target on a 55 degree day. This most likely would overshoot the t-stat setting of the room on warmer days.

If you read the manual, the supply "reset" curve for the outdoor reset sensor is adjustable in the menu to acommodate the heat loss and comfort level of your home.

All these things combined is what makes these types of boilers very efficient. It is NOT just the "condensing" function of the boiler that makes it efficient, as some of the old timers believe.

Greg

Greg_49

Weil Mclain Ultra 3 Lockouts

Rob,

First, I was glad to hear that Weil McLain hand deliverd your control module to you. To answer the first question, I have had absolutely Zero faults since I installed the new controller.

You did not mention what your fault indication is. It is good that you have traced it to adding the garage loop though.

I am taking a wild guess that the fault you are getting is "Supply > return by 58 °F"

If that is the case, it makes sense that yes..the garage will remain quite a bit cooler than the house would (especially by the floor where the baseboards are) and when that cool water hit the boiler...you get that fault.

Not sure what your current pre-puge setting is, but yes, it won't hurt to increase that setting for a longer time to allow the water to mix-down a little more before the boiler fires and starts monitoring temperatures.

If that fails, then yes I'm sure a buffer tank in the return line from the garage would help.

Or, if you worry about boiler failures, and the possibility of pipes in the garage bursting, you could probably go with heat exchanger near your boiler and make the loop to the garage a glycol loop. With a heat exchanger close to the boiler, the water loop would be very short and allow the water to "mix-down" a few times on your current pre-purge.

I know that gets a little complex...for the heat exchanger scenario, you either need one more pump (one for pumping water through the exchangers water loop and another for pumping the glycol to the garage), or to run the boiler supply through the heat exchanger continously (and the glycol loop to garage cycles the glycol loop pump when the garage stat calls, therefore if the garage stat doesn't call, the glycol sits idle in the exchanger and you'll have very little heat loss). Plus, if you run it through the heat exchanger continously, the exchanger will have some head loss and you may need a boiler pump with more head capacity.

Regards,
Greg

Greg_49

Replaced Board -New Problem

Tony,

First, you probably want to slow the zone pumps down, unless of course you have an extremely long run and/or high head loss in your zones. This will allow the water to travel more slowly through the zone and remove more heat.

Second...(this will seem like a dumb question but you need to check)....did your contractor set a Pre-Purge time in the controllers menu? or did he just put the board in and leave it set to 0 Seconds?

Greg

TonyBal_2

Temp Rising Too Quicly

Greg,
I do not know what is considered a long run or if I have a high head loss. One zone is the bedroom zone. It has 3 average size bedrooms on the same level as the boiler with the farthest distance being approximately fifty feet from the boiler. The other consideration is the upstairs zone that is directly above the boiler and feeds approximatley 50 feet of baseboard. Third zone is one room behind the boiler room with 26 feet of baseboard.

The Pre-Pump times are all set for 20 seconds and the post-purge times are all set for 30 seconds.

Should I still slow the circulators down a notch?
Should I increase either or both of the pump run times?

Thanks!

Tony_23

Flow rates

Your zone circs are likely flowing much too fast. Over pumping is all too common.

Set all your zone circ speeds on low and see if they keep up with demand. If one doesn't, change only that one to medium.

Set the pre-pump times for at least 60 seconds. The post pump times can be 15 seconds, since your zoned and would only be circulating the boiler alone.

Tony_23

Foggy

He's got a handle on modulation and ODR.

You need a book. Modulation does not get rooms to temp faster, neither does ODR. In fact, with ODR, if you also use setback, recovery is much longer.

TonyBal_2

Ultra 3 Lockouts

Tony,
What about the boiler circulator and the DHW circulator? Should I slow them both down to low also?

Also, please explain what is meant when you say "doesn't keep up with demand".

I know these questions are basic but I like to know everything I can about things. My expertise is industrial real estate development, finance and airplanes. Ask me anything, anytime if you so wish. And thanks for your help.

Thanks
Thanks

Tony_23

No

The boiler circ and DHW circ need adequate flow through the boiler.

What circs do you have on those and what model Ultra do you have ?

TonyBal

Ultra 3 lockout

Ultra 3-105.
Grundfos 3 speed circulators

Greg_49

Temp Rising Too Quicly

Tony,

Definitely slow your zone circs down to minimum speed. It sounds like you have very short piping runs and not much baseboard on each zone. Also increase that Pre-Purge incrementally, try 60 seconds, 90 seconds, 120 seconds (mine is set to 120)....see if that improves things. It sounds like you have same problem, the initial hot water out of the boiler to the zones needs to mix-down and blen to a consistent temperature before the boiler starts.

Greg

Tony_23

Hmmm

The 105 is shipped with a Taco 007. I believe Grundfos 15-58 3 speeders would equal that on medium. Shouldn't be a problem on high, but not as much efficiency due to decreased deltaT. I don't use Grundfos, so I don't have curve charts for them and am not sure 100%. You could try it on medium and watch your inlet/outlet temp differential while running full fire to make sure it doesn't get too large a spread, say over 20*.

Jim Patterson / Orchard Valley Heating and Cooling

Important issues here

I have 5 series 3 boilers installed and have chased issues with futile success for the past 3 months. You need to get in touch with a rep. Issue 1: they have an issue with the original U control in some boilers- depends on how early in production they were made Issue 2: doing this allows you to change the per pump and ost pump times to 60 seconds from 30 seconds Issue 3: chage the mod differential to 10 sec from 5 sec. issue 3: make sure your DHW circ is large enough and all piping is correct- the new control is far too touchy in my eyes Issue 3: I would hold off tying this in with tekmat TN4 or related products. Allowing them to take over the boiler firing has been a disaster- lockouts constantly and nobody knows how or why.
THink this could have been addressed during the 2-3 years of careful design and testing in the factory? Don't get me wrong, I have sold the Ultra exclusively since they were introduced. The $ are racking up in service calls and the clients have ZERO confidence in the product. It's hard to justify 3-4 service calls and a replaced brain in the first 2 weeks of owning a very expensive system.

TonyBal_2

Solved Lockout problem

It has been two days since I have slowed down the system circulators and increased the pre-purge time to 60 seconds without a lockout event. My previous boiler was a Hydro Pulse dating back to 1982 which was state of the art and high efficient back then. I went through two boilers in 26 years. The down side was the noise which was like a two stroke outboard motor.
I must say I LOVE the Ultra (if it keeps running like it is running). It is virtually silent. In addition the heat throughout the house is very consistant. This system works best when you set the thermostats for day and night and never touch them again. Plenty of hot water and a great recovery rate.