Is the System 2000 the best for an old farm house?

C Packard

Piggyback question- Am also looking to replace my 19 yr old Burnham boiler with either S2k EK-1 Frontier Premier w SuperStor SSU 45 or Buderus G115-4 w Buderus indiect h/w 40 gal. Somewhat similar application- 3600 sq ft cape (long house) w 5 zones and copper baseboard heating. Plan to be in house 5-8 yrs and priority is efficiency and low maintenance costs. Quoted prices for systems are within $400 of each other.

Any advice appreciated. thanks

H.S.

System 2000

I live in an old farm house and just had a 15 year old Burnham crack on me. Learned about the System 2000, but need more info., like is it the best option for an old farm house? Any info would be great.

jp_2

best

option for an old farm house:

Insulation, weather stripping, window seals and caulk!

Norm Harvey

I agree with JP.

Do you have cast iron radiators? Cast iron baseboard? Fin tube baseboard?

I would say you would do yourself very well by having a system 2000 installed. Based on the kind of radiation you have, and the kind of water volume, ask your installer about a high water volume kit.

The System 2000 will save you around 40%, but insulation, air sealing, and weather stripping will save you a lot more.



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H.S.

Thanks I agree on the sealing options as well, and to answer your quesitons 80% of the windows are new and sealed failry well. I have fin tube for 90% of the house. Most of what I've read has been positive about the System 2000, any idea how it compares to a Buderus in quality and price?

Norm Harvey

Buderus is a high mass concept, where system 2000 is low mass. I equate it to heating a cup of tea when you want a cup as opposed to the whole kettle.

For fin tube baseboard I do not like out door reset that the logomatic would offer.

I prefer the benefits to the system 2ks control scheme versus the logomatic.

I install both Buderus and System 2k. In your application I would highly recommend a System 2k boiler.

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JackR

Warranty?

Did you try going to Burnham to see if there was any warranty left on the unit? If there is you may be able to apply it towards a newer version. The MPO is very comparable to a Buderus and it may save you some cost up front.

Just a thought

Robert O'Brien

Installed

a System 2000 today and it's a fine choice.As are many others,do your homework and decide for yourself

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Robert O'Brien

This

is an excerpt from an email I received today from the customer that had the EK installed Saturday.

"The hot water is wonderful - and so is the quiet. I have a hard time
determining when it's on. Several times I've held my hand to the
radiator to see if it's warm.

It's great, and for the first time ever, I'm looking forward to getting
my heating bill!

Thanks,

Laura"

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Charlie from wmass

Is the system hot water or steam? system 2000 is only for hot water. Make sure a proper heat load is done for sizing the boiler, as the former installer in my area did many under and over sized boilers. over wastes fuel and under leaves you cold. I prefer a cast iron boiler or a mod-con for a gas boiler.

H.S.

Thanks Norm, your responses are very helpful. I spoke to reps for both the S2K and Buderus G115WS5 models. If you could offer more on why you feel the outdoor reset control is bad for finboard, I'd really apreciate it, to me it seemed to be practical. My negative thought on it was one more thing that could break.

Norm Harvey

Sure,

With an oil boiler, you need to keep the return water temperature above 140 degrees to avoid the flue gas condensing in the boiler or in the chimney. Once flue gas condenses the sulphur in the fuel mixes with the water and makes sulphuric acid with corrodes the chimney and boiler materials.

Since baseboard has a 20 degree differential, 180 water temp in, will result in 160 temp coming out. The furthest we can modulate that down and have the return water stay above 140 is 160 degrees. So with the Out Door Reset (ODR) you can only safely modulate your supply temp down 20 degrees.

I love ODR! But I believe that it should be on your system side, not on the boiler. Example: If you set up your piping arrangement to injection (or primary secondary, but I favor Injection) The ODR can truly work to its full potential, and the boiler can work to its full potential by heating up only when the System side (radiators) determine that they need a little more heat.


A much cheaper alternative, and Brookhaven National Labs tested is the System 2000 with its control Scheme. Only turn the burner on when there's a call for heat, and when the burner shuts down, put any extra heat that's left over into the living space. Since the system 2000 only holds 2.5 gallons of water, its fast to heat up, and not a lot is wasted (if any due to the post purge).


In a nutshell that's my opinion.

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Norm Harvey

I dont know how helpfull this will be, but heres what I was trying to explain with the ODR. While thats a great system set up, I think your home sounds like a perfect fit for a system 2000

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tccoggs

Norm,

I though the condensing point for oil was lower, 140 deg was for Nat gas.

Only reason I say this is that I know the Danfoss bypass protection valves are usually recommended at 113 deg for oil and 140 deg for gas.

Norm Harvey

I was always under the impression that it was 140. I could very well be wrong. I'll try to do some research on that and get a definite.

Thanks for bringing it up!

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Joe Brix

why not OD Reset?

I have copper fin tube and love the Tekmar OR reset on my Burnham. When it's in the 40's out Boiler temp @ 150 is fine for the fin tube and the indirect. I only need 180 degree water during that one or 2 week cold snap each winter when you see single digit temperatures outside. Still don't see the need for the EK to ramp up to 180+ all the time. Stick with MPO, A great boiler and easy to clean.

Bob Forand

System 2k

Joe, there are other ways at looking at this. Take Norm's analogy of the cup of tea.

I believe that low mass with fin tube is the way to go. With low mass you are only heating the 2.5 gallons in the boiler and 2.5 gallons for every 100 feet of tubing. Let'e say you have a total of 300 feet of combined tubing, that would mean you have a total of 10 gallons of water i n your system.

Now let's take the whole pot, in Norm's analogy. Your boiler probably holds somewhere near 15 gallons of water, so add that to the 7.5 gallons in the 300 feet and you are at roughly 22 gallons.

So if the math is correct, it takes 1 btu, to raise one gallon of water 1 degree fahrenheit. In your system it takes 22 btu's to heat that 1 gallon, where in a low mass system it takes 10 btu's to heat the same water.

Hence the analogy about when you want a cup of tea, why heat the whole pot.

Now if you had cast iron rads, that hold much more water, different story.

I would opt for the low mass system 2k myself in this application.

Unknown

Actually

System 2000 has a great setup for high mass systems too . This one had 2 injection loops . Worked excellent .

Norm Harvey

Wow that plate exchanger is huge!

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Unknown

I think

that size exchanger comes standard with the EK2 , regardless of the size storage tank you use . Kinda overkill for a 40 gallon , huh ?

Norm Harvey

The standard plate exchanger seems half as thick as the one pictured, but it may be just me.

http://www.indoil.com/portfolio/photos/nunes1b.jpg


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Norm Harvey

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I'd go system 2000 hands down.

I think theres a lot of great info in this thread alone in favor of low mass for fin tube baseboard

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tccoggs

With a $400 spread, its probably worth it to go for the s2k. With outside air and the NX, its very quiet.

You can duplicate the functionaly of the system manager on any other low mass boiler and get about the same results. Biasi B-10/Honeywell AQ2000 has been a popular combo. I went that route because I already had the superstor SSU45, and got my AQ from a friend for next to nothing. Only gotcha with the AQ is you have to use the honeywell AQ T stats, which aren't cheap compared to most you find at the local homestore.

I feel like there is alot of marketing dollars wrapped up in the S2K's cost, anyone else feel the same.

Robert O'Brien

TCCOGGS

The EK doesn't come with an NX,it's an AFG.But it is incredibly quiet nonetheless.

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