Steam controls in a store/apartment

scott markle_2

Steamhead,

The sensor is referred(by tekmar) as a condensate return sensor, "steam established" is a indicator light that goes on when the target temperature for this sensor is reached.

The data brochure gives detailed explanation of all these features,the control also has setback features(you need a timer for this) but if your trying to save fuel(and like it cool at night) you should probably incorporate this as well .

Scot B

Contolling two floors

I have a small retail store with an apartment above, that is heated with a one pipe steam, dry return system. The thermostat (Hockey Puck) is located in the retail first floor. The retail floor has to be overheated to keep the tenants warm. What can I install to make each floor more even and comfortable for everyone involved while saving some money in the process? Two thermostats linked with trv's on each radiator? I would greatly appreciate any suggestions. This site has been so helpful in the past to me at my home residence and I hope you can be again.. thanks.....

Scot

nicholas bonham-carter

keeping the apt. warm

make sure your main [and radiator] vents are working properly.depending on your piping arrangement, there may have been a main vent on the top of the riser to get the steam upstairs as quickly as possible.
many people here have reduced their steam pressure to ounces, and experienced quicker and more even heat.perhaps that would work in your situation.
after you are sure that the system is functioning as well as the original installers intended, then you could try the trvs on the upstairs.most likely the system was much more even when first installed.--nbc

Scot B

In addition to the above post I also have a large cooler running on the floor show. This dumps the heat into the first floor, floor show and messes with the thermostat thus increasing the temp downstairs and keeping the upstairs cooler. Therefore the need to increase the thermostat to make the tenants happy. With that being said and assuming all is well with the boiler, pressure, near piping, and venting do they make such integrated controls especially thermostats possibly linked? And thanks for responding NBC.

Steamhead (in transit)

In that situation

I'd go with an outdoor reset control like a Tekmar 279 or 269. This will cycle the boiler based on outside temperature. Then vent your mains properly, and use thermostatic radiator valves on each floor. These will shut down the first-floor radiators when the cooler is running, but let the second-floor ones heat and give the tenant some control there too.

Control the boiler with a Vaporstat so it doesn't build too much pressure when TRVs close.

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Scot B

thanks

Thanks for the quick reply steamhead !! I will research the Tekmar site now.

Scot B

269

Steamhead

The 269 allows for up to two indoor temp sensors to provide temp feedback. I'm assuming that one could be mounted in the upstairs apartment in conjunction with the downstairs and outside reset? Can you add on to the cable length or is it a maximum preset length? This really does look sweet, a far cry from the hockey puck!!!

Scot B

Apparently

Upon reading the tech application pdf.. I have two steam take offs that serve each side of the building both floors. Would I then need two 269's as outlined in their pdf? It's a fairly small system, extremely old structure, post and beam construction from early 1800's Insulated well stuck between other structures in a quaint downtown setting.

nicholas bonham-carter

steam control

does that mean you have 2 separate boilers? i am sure that they could be fired [maybe piped together and staged] as 1 unit together.why don't you post some pix here [even the scenic facade!].what is the size of the building; and what is the fuel consumption? what is your design temp?
the tekmars would undoubtably improve the situation,but i would recommend making sure first that the system is in good shape,low pressure, and then moving the thermost [or remote sensor] to the cold area upstairs. trv's would be the next step in your improvement scheme.finally the tekmar solution [the investment in 2 tekmars would be better spent in other ways] --nbc

Dry Steam

Indeed $$$

Just searched for a price on the tekmars. That will take a year or two to recoup, but possibly worth it. Thanks for the additional suggestions nbc.. and no just one boiler with two takeoffs.

Steamhead (in transit)

You only need one Tekmar

the indoor sensors are optional, and can be used to prevent overheating. So you wouldn't want to use one on the first floor.

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scott markle_2

scot,

The tekmar is in essence an interval timer that varies it's % on time according to outdoor temperature.

The control also has an optional condensate return sensor.I don't understand steam enough to explain what this is for, how it's adjusted,or when it's needed or not.

I am currently using a 269 to interval fire a condensing boiler at minimum firing rate. I came up with this as a means to eliminate the short cycling behavior i was experiencing (my design load is less the boilers minimum modulation). Works great.

Expect to spend some time "tuning the perimeters". Probably best to establish these perimeters before connecting the indoor sensors. Intuition and experience with steam systems will be important, a control is only as good as how well it's configured.

I got my 269 on ebay for a fraction of it's normal price. Tekmar warrantees it's products from date of manufacture so my warrantee was essentially expired even though my unit was brand new. For the price I payed this hardly bothered me. The 279 is the new digital interface model.

Steamhead (in transit)

The condensate sensor

is more accurately called the "Steam Established" sensor. Its job is to tell the Tekmar when the steam has reached the end of the system, so it can start counting down to the point at which it shuts off the burner.

I would not install one of these controls without this sensor.

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Steamhead (in transit)

To avoid confusion

I generally call it a steam-established sensor, since it turns on that light and starts the countdown when steam is established.

Sometimes we have to translate Tekmar-speak to plain English ;-)

We have a bunch of 269s out there and they work well.

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scott markle_2

Agreed

Their literature is good, but It's a real mental work out.

Thankfully they adopted a simple two button tstat for tn-4, A lot to be said for simplicity.