Header configuration

Unknown

Bill- I also have a house that has plaster walls etc. and have the threat that at this time of year it may turn suddenly very cold so that was the direction of my thought on "the wait till spring" idea. Obviously you can't wait till then.

Swing joints are used on threaded pipe to allow movement during expansion /contraction. The attached drawing of a swing joint is of a "true" swing joint in that the multiple elbows enable it to act like a universal on a car drive shaft. On a boiler, while not "true" swing joints in most of the configurations I've seen, the standard setup with elbows takes the expansion strain off the boiler section joints which you probably know are like a loaf of sliced bread with the slices (the boiler`sections) being held together by bolts or rods. The swing joints also make it much easier to joint the parts of header together and allow for a pipe nipple that might slightly not be to the correct length.

Here is a link ( http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/271.pdf ) to a picture of a dropheader on a boiler that looks similar in general configuration to yours. This picture came from: http://www.heatinghelp.com/library.cfm#Steam%20Piping
which is on this website and is from "Resources" / "Library" / "Piping" at the top of this page. There are other pictures of drop headers there that might be of interest to you. The big advantage of a drop header is you get dryer steam and dryer steam carries more latent heat.

I hope this is of help to you. I went through a similar situation

Added: Make sure that the pitch of the piping (flow) is checked with a bubble level. I've found in old houses you can't go by measurement as nothing is level.

Bill_110

Header configurations

I had a boiler installed with an incorrect header configuration (as per the mfg's installation instructions)which causes an unequal distribution between the two steam mains, because of bullheading on the system risers. The problem with correcting this - by putting the two system takeoffs between the equalizer and the boiler riser nearest to the equalizer - is that providing the recommended spacings, the first system takeoff at least 15" from the nearest boiler riser , comes in close conflict with a beam. The old boiler had its supply tapping in the tops of the boiler sections and at right angles from the present boiler tappings - this allowed a more direct connection to the system connections.

To provide a visual of their recommended piping use this link to the Dunkirk installation manual
http://www.ecrinternational.com/secure/upload/document/397.pdf. The illustration is on page 6, figure 6A.

I was wondering if the header configuration used by the installers in the following link (provided via E-Mail by a forum contributor) would meet the mfg's recommendation. http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/wahelper/GetImage?id=41492 Their header seems to have a right angle turn, and then the system risers take off and the equalizer terminates the run. If this could be done in my situation it would greatly simplify obtaining the recommended 15" between the last boiler riser and the first system riser, and would make the connections to the system mains much more direct. Sorry for the uninformed question, but I made the mistake of dealing with some uninformed installers. My appreciation to anyone who takes the trouble to consider the matter.

Norm Harvey

hey Bill could you try and upload some pictures of your current header and near boiler piping?

The link to the literature you provided bounces tot he main page of the manufacturer. What model boiler do you have?

Also the photo of the dropped header you linked to looks great! I see no problems with turning the header 90 degrees.

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Bill_110

Thanks for the reply Norm. The following link and instruction should get you to the installation manual, the piping diagram is on page 6, figure 6A I believe. My boiler is a Lennox, but Dunkirk sells the exact same boilers and has the exact same installation manual. Whereas Lennox mistakenly repeats the illustration for a one tapping supply where the two tapping supply diagram should be, Dunkirk has the correct illustration.

http://www.dunkirk.com/product_literature.asp
then click: PSB Rev.2.0 Installation & Operation Manual

I've got a picture of my piping setup as an attachment. If you use the vent pipe as a means of orientation, then to the left of the vent pipe a boiler riser can be seen connecting to the header. Just to the left of this it tees in above the equalizer. Then the two system risers run in one pipe or bullhead I guess until they diverge and go to the two system mains. The system riser towards the back of the picture, or closer to where the vent pipe goes into the chimney, goes fairly directly into the system main. The system riser towards the front of the picture diverges from the common system pipe at a right angle, and then does a horizontal run, and takes more turns before it goes into the other system main, which is the one getting shortchanged on heating.

I'm thinking that if the present header made a turn towards the front of the boiler, this would provide the necessary 15" separation called for between the last boiler riser and the first system riser. It would also make the system riser connections to the system mains much more direct and easy. Where the new header section ended in the front the equalizer would be situated after the last system riser.


In order to accomplish these spacings otherwise the present header would have to be run straight out to the left for a good distance, where it would come in conflict with a beam, and necessitate long and awkward system riser connections to the system mains. Of course I would have the 2" copper(should be 2 1/2" according to the manual) replaced with the schedule 40 iron pipe, and have the header size increased to 3" inches? Any advice is apreciated.

Unknown

Bill-
I must first qualify myself, I'm a homeowner, not a "steam pro" so please keep that in mind when you read the following which are just some thoughts based on my limited knowledge of steam systems.

As Norm said it would be helpful if you could provide more pictures. We need to see all the boiler plumbing, high and low. Take pictures at distance in high resolution from all sides and then they can be blown up and each area individually examined.

My first thought is that it is almost winter, wouldn't it be better to put this off till the spring /summer? With that thought I'm wondering how well your system is working now and what can be done to improve it as it now stands. You say that you aren't getting enough heat in one main. Is it possible that the "no heat main" isn't properly vented?...meaning that the vents on the end of that main aren't working properly?

As you seem to already know, copper, at least on the steam side of the boiler, is a rather a "no-no". I would use a drop header myself, something long the line of the picture you posted of the system (with the elbow) done by Gerry Gill (who does very excellent work BTW). The use of elbows on the risers allows movement which lessens the strain on the boiler and its sectional joints when the header pipes expand and contract.

Just for consideration...since you get more directional flexibility (tees limit you to a 90 degree layout)when using the elbows, you can route the risers to a more optimum location for your header layout. Speaking of tees,I also might mention that in a lot of photos I've seen of pro work on this type of boiler, a "plugged" tee rather than a elbow is used at boiler connection to bring the riser to the vertical. When installing the header,keeping slope for drainage toward the equalizer and not forming pockets for water to gather,is very important and especially important if you use an elbow in the header.

Proper insulation of the headers/piping also makes a big difference. I was told by the "experts" that plumbed my system I "didn't need insulation - It'll will keep your basement warm and the heat rises". While they may have actually thought that, I have a tendency to think it was just so they could avoid doing the insulation. After reading Dan's books I insulated my headers (plus replumbed them) and now the system works very much better.

BTW If you don't already have them I'd recommend Dan's books
(See a "Steamy Deal ) at the bottom of this page) Easy reading and packed with info on steam systems. They're a "must" if you own a steam system.

Bill_110

Thanks for the response Rod. All the mains have new vents which worked well enough last year with the old boiler. There was no particular heat disparity between the two mains. I'm not saying the venting is perfect, but the flaw in running both system risers together against the mfgs specific prohibition, and then observing that the main with the more direct piping after they split off is getting most of the steam, makes my conclusion that the piping error is responsible for the heat disparity almost metaphysical certitude in my mind. I did have a steamfitting guy look at it, and without any prompting from me about what was wrong, that was his conclusion.

Waiting till next year, in spite of the inconvenience of an installation now, is not an option for me. I have serious concerns that during real cold snaps some parts of my home may have problems with freezing pipes or cracking plaster. In addition I would never be able to go anywhere because I would either have to turn the thermostat off and risk freezing pipes etc, or leave it on where under certain weather conditions it might keep running indefinitely. The idea of red hot poorly piped material dangerously overheating and maybe exploding would not let me be away with any kind of peace of mind. In addition since I haven't paid the installer, I think that issue would come up before the end of the heating season.

Thanks for the info on the dropped header. Where the boiler risers come down and connect with the top of the header, is this what you would call a 'swing joint'. Thanks for your help.

Indysteamer

piping

Bill: If you go into the library section of this site you can see several examples of dropped headers installed on boilers with supply tappings just like they are on your boiler. There are atleast two examples that have the 15" length requirement you need.

I am fairly familiar with the diagrams for this Lennox boiler. Keep in mind what is shown is the very minimum that is needed to allow the boiler to make dry steam. If you read some of the fine print it is stated that off-set headers ect. will more than likely be needed.

Anyway check out those pictures in the Library and it will be much easier for you to picture how this boiler should really be piped.

Bill_110

Library

Thanks for the info on the library pictures. It stated somewhere there that drop headers are actually easier to install. I take it though that working with threaded joints requires more skill than copper, which is maybe why these businesses with young employees use copper?

Do you think that someone who is really proficient in working with threaded pipe could sketch out how they would do a job like mine ahead of time? The owner of the business that did my installation sent me a letter saying he'd be willing to re-do it in black iron pipe. I had already informed him I wanted the job done right and to send his most senior personnel. I'm wondering if he has any senior personnel though. Maybe I should insist he subcontract the job if he is really concerned about my satisfaction as a customer. It seems like if the guys he sent before were really good they would have gotten the job right the first time, even if they did use copper. The one thing I can say is that they did at least slope the header down towards the equalizer. I don't have the time and patience for a second deficient job, so any tips on what to ask for or look for in having it redone are appreciated.

I know I want schedule 40 black iron pipe. Making the header larger would help lower velocity and dry out the steam. The mfg says 2 1/2 inches as a minimum I guess, but what would be an ideal size for my boiler setup - 3" or 4" even? A drop header would be preferable? Where should the iron end and the copper begin - above the equalizer, or should that pipe be iron as well? The mfg says 1 1/2" minimum for the equalizer pipe - is there in advantage in going for a larger size? Any advice would be appreciated.

Unknown

> Thanks for the info on the library pictures. It

> stated somewhere there that drop headers are

> actually easier to install. I take it though that

> working with threaded joints requires more skill

> than copper, which is maybe why these businesses

> with young employees use copper?

>

> Do you think

> that someone who is really proficient in working

> with threaded pipe could sketch out how they

> would do a job like mine ahead of time? The owner

> of the business that did my installation sent me

> a letter saying he'd be willing to re-do it in

> black iron pipe. I had already informed him I

> wanted the job done right and to send his most

> senior personnel. I'm wondering if he has any

> senior personnel though. Maybe I should insist he

> subcontract the job if he is really concerned

> about my satisfaction as a customer. It seems

> like if the guys he sent before were really good

> they would have gotten the job right the first

> time, even if they did use copper. The one thing

> I can say is that they did at least slope the

> header down towards the equalizer. I don't have

> the time and patience for a second deficient job,

> so any tips on what to ask for or look for in

> having it redone are appreciated.

>

> I know I

> want schedule 40 black iron pipe. Making the

> header larger would help lower velocity and dry

> out the steam. The mfg says 2 1/2 inches as a

> minimum I guess, but what would be an ideal size

> for my boiler setup - 3" or 4" even? A drop

> header would be preferable? Where should the iron

> end and the copper begin - above the equalizer,

> or should that pipe be iron as well? The mfg says

> 1 1/2" minimum for the equalizer pipe - is there

> in advantage in going for a larger size? Any

> advice would be appreciated.



Bill- I'm really a novice at steam heating so can only relate what I've learned from my own experiences. To answer your question I think Dan's book title: "The Lost Art of steam Heating" says it all. The major majority of people in the heating business just don't understand steam heating. This isn't surprising as there are very few new construction steam system in residential homes these days. The cost and labor of heavy pipe installation is just prohibitive. Because of this lack of new construction there is no need for designing a total system so what you are seeing is just replacement boilers installations. The heating contractors not understanding the basic design philosophy of steam systems just follow the boiler manufacturers instructions to there best of their ability. Most of these instructions are very minimal. I think probably because if they spec. the boiler installation optimally they would loose the bid and never sell any boilers. You in a situation where the heating installers know very little and a lot what they know is wrong and the homeowner (like myself) knowing "squat" about steam systems.
When I first started looking in steam systems (my own)when I questioned several heating guys their answers were contradictory and vague which rather ticked me off as I thought I was getting BSed. I now realize they just don't know or picked up misleading information somewhere along the way.
I say all this as I think you shouldn't put too much fault on your heating contractor. It's just that real "Steam pros" seem to be as rare as ice cubes in a desert. Unless "his most senior personnel" was working in the heating industry in the 1930s being senior wouldn't necessarily.give him a steam qualification.

Unknown

Bill- I'm really a novice at steam heating so can only relate what I've learned from my own experiences. To answer your question I think Dan's book title: "The LOST Art of Steam Heating" says it all. The major majority of people in the heating business just don't understand steam heating!

This isn't surprising as there are very few new construction steam systems done in residential homes these days. The cost and labor of heavy pipe installation is probably prohibitive. Because of this lack of new construction there is no need for designing a total system so knowledge of steam systems is minimal. What you are seeing is just replacement boilers installations and the heating contractors not understanding the basic design philosophy of steam systems, just follow the boiler manufacturers instructions to the best of their ability. Most of these instructions are very minimal. I think probably because if manufacturers speced their boiler installation optimally they would loose the bid and never sell any boilers. You're in a situation where heating installers know very little and a lot what they do know is wrong. Coupled with this is the homeowner (like myself) knows "squat" about steam systems.

When I first started looking in steam systems(my own), I questioned several heating guys and their answers were contradictory and vague That rather ticked me off as I thought I was getting BSed but I now realize they just don't know or picked up misleading information somewhere along the way.

I say all this as I think you shouldn't put too much fault on your heating contractor. It's just a sign of the times so to speak and real "Steam pros" seem to be as rare as ice cubes in a desert. Unless "his most senior personnel" was working in the heating industry in the 1930s, just being senior, wouldn't necessarily give him a steam qualification.

From what you are saying it would seem that your contractor is a good guy as he is willing to work with you and since he probably made his bid on the manufacturers instructions, which are minimal, in fairness, I think you should probably expect to pay more if you go with a dropheader/oversize pipes as you are upgrading to optimal. Sort of like getting a bid on a Chevy and changing it to a Cadillac.

I don't consider myself qualified to answer your technical questions. All this is covered in the "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" so I'd be just parroting what I've read there. If you don't have a copy you really need to get yourself one. If you want a good system you're going to have to learn enough about steam heating to do your own engineering (It's all in the book!) and if nothing else to be able to qualify the guy that is doing your work. I'm not trying to be evasive I just don't want to lead you astray.

Dan's books were my enlightenment to steam systems. I was in the dark about steam heating till I discovered them and believe me I looked a lot. I don't mean to sound rude or pushy on this, just that since they were such a big help to me, I know they would do the same for anyone else.