Steam question

Larry C_13

Is the system losing water? Is the make up water metered, to determine the loss rate? If excess water loss, could there be a hole above the waterline and the steam going up the chimney?

When you say "caravan style", what does that mean?

Larry C

Steve Ebels_3

Steam question

Over the course of the past summer we had the privilege of overhauling/resurrecting a single pipe steam system in an old hotel. The original reason for the customers contact was a 3 year old SlantFin Galaxy that had spring a leak. It was one of three in a Caravan style setup. The leak was right on the bottom of one of the center sections and was caused by buildup inside the water jacket allowing a hot spot to form and burn through.

From what I was told the boilers had been installed in 2004 and overall the job looked pretty good. The company doing the install built a nice drop header, the dimensions were correct and all the controls were what you would want to see in a system. Apparently they neglected to, or the previous owner of the building instructed them to forgo, a thorough cleaning of the system as it was basically trying to boil mud whe I first laid eyes on it.

I told the current owner that along with the failure of the boiler, we had to deal with the issues that were going on in the rest of the system. There are around 50 assorted radiators with some standing iron mixed in with cabinet style fin tube convectors. We found that nearly all of the radiators had non functioning or missing vents that had been simply plugged off. Some had manual air vents like you would find on baseboard. (Wonder how those were supposed to work?) There were no main vents anywhere on the three returns coming back into the condensate tank.

The system banged like a hammer mill pretty much all the way through a cycle and from anecdotal conversations with some of the residents it sounded like numerous rooms did not heat well if at all.

We replaced the leaking block, installed a new condensate return tank and pump sized to Slant Fin's suggestions and then went room to room installing Gorton 4,5 & 6 radiator vents based on how far the rads were from the boiler and mains. We also corrected a piping issue that basically formed a very large trap in one of the returns.
At this point we are STILL flushing and skimming the system and getting pretty grungy looking water out of it even after dosing it 3 times with some Rhomar Cleaner.

The owner called to inform me that the gas bill seemed quite a bit higher than last years corresponding bill. This causes me to wonder if I've over looked something so I looking for suggestions. Please feel free to critique. I don't get many chances to work on steamers so I could have easily missed something.

ttekushan_3

2 things.

Methinks that a single pipe system should have wet returns and no vents on the return. That trap in the piping shouldn't have caused any trouble if it was all under water. I would have liked to see the end of the mains vented and a false water line installed before the condensate receiver to keep the returns wet. Thats one thing, though I'm not sure how it would affect the gas bill.

The big thing is, if there were all those plugged radiator vents and now everything is properly vented, maybe the bill is higher because they're ACTUALLY HEATING THE BUILDING for the first time in ages!

And a side note or two, are they measuring gas usage per degree day? How's that mud in the boilers doing? It never ceases to amaze me how much stuff can wind up occluded throughout the sections. Keep up the water treatment. Over time the boilers will clear.

Al Hendrickson_13

Just a layman's observation here.

1) Last year a lot of rooms didn't have heat.

2) This year they all do.

3) More heat out = More gas in.

. . . Just a guess.

A heating guy I know tells the story about how he went to do a service call on a single pipe steam system in an old farmhouse owned by a widow. She only had heat in a couple of rooms because most of the radiator vents were plugged. He replaced the bad ones and the whole house heated nicely. The customer was happy until she got her next gas bill. She SCREAMED at him over the phone to come over and fix whatever he broke . . . because her fuel bills had gone way up now that her house was actually warm. No good deed goes unpunished.

Edit: Looks like the above response came in while I was typing mine . . . but I'll leave it anyway.

littoralcell

Insulation of Steam Pipes in the Basement

I had my basement partially renovated this year changing it from a scary, dark crypt to a nice painted, lighted area for storage and laundry. When that was done they removed the insulation (which probably had asbestos in it) from the various pipes going from my boiler throughout the basement. These pipes are now exposed and obviously are losing heat when the boiler rungs. According to my contractor, new insulation for the pipes is very expensive. He suggested that the heat loss would be o.k. because it is in the basement and heat rises. I'm not so sure because for one thing the basement ceiling is insulated and drywalled. Since the basement is used for laundry, storage and the boiler I really don't need to heat it that much.

What do you think? Should I spend the money to get the pipes reinsulated in the basement or not worry about it that much?

Thanks!

Steve Ebels_3

Caravan

Multiple boilers piped into a common header. In this case there are three that crank out about 350,000 btu each. Judging from the footprint of the old boiler left on the floor, all three would have fit inside it with room to spare.

Jack_44

insulate!

The insulation is a one-time cost. heating the basement (not the living quarters) is ongoing cost. A search for this topic here on the wall will yield lots of discussion about this. I believe 1" thick has the consensus vote for most bang for the buck.

You might also consider starting your own thread - you'll get better answers than this homeowner's opinion.

Peace.

Steve Ebels_3

All rooms now heating.........

That thought crossed my mind also. There is no way to prove or disprove it because the building owner is "new" and the tenants are obviously transient except for a few. The price of natural gas has increased about 17% from last year to this year also. One other thing I picked up in the course of the conversations is that the building is full to capacity now whereas last winter there were only 3 of the 11 apartments occupied. It dawned on me while piping next to the 50 gallon water heater that the thing was running continuously. You read that correctly, a 50 gallon water heater providing domestic needs for 11 apartments.

Steamhead (in transit)

Steve, did you send me pics of this a while back?

it sure sounds familiar..........

Terry is right about the false water line. It's covered in Lost Art too, as a way to make a system work like it did when it was gravity-return, keeping the wet returns wet. This will keep the steam in its place.

The downside is you lose the condensate tank's venting capability. But that's not a bad thing in this case. Vent the steam mains (or dry returns as a second choice) as you would on a gravity-return system and all will be well.

BTW, is the new pump a "boiler-feed pump" or just a "condensate return pump"?

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Steve Ebels_3

Yes that would be the system

We put Gorton #2's on each of the three returns coming back to the condensate tank. They are located ahead or upstream if you will of the F&T traps. The condensate tank is also open to the atmosphere through a 3/4" pipe tapping. We did install a water meter in order to monitor the usage of the system. Some of the old returns disappear into the dirt in the crawlspace areas of the building. I don't know how you would access them without ripping up the floor above.

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, you could

hire some spindly teenagers with shovels ;-)

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