Sleepless in Boston!

Jason_44

Well, I bit the bullet and had the near-boiler piping redone on my one-pipe steam system. I had my doubts as to how effective it would be and it was not cheap, but MAN WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!! All of the radiators now get hot all the way across and the water-hammer and spitting air vents are completely gone. Just a tiny bit of hissing from each of the air-vents while the radiators heat up. Before the repipe, each air vent used to sound like a sick train whistle.

My thanks to Joel and the crew (especially Steve) at Boucher Energy Systems in Mendon, MA. They did a tremendous job and I highly recommend them to anyone in need of a steam genius in the Boston area.

I never knew that a steam system could heat so well and so quietly. A job very well done (pictures attached)!

Jason White
Homeowner and "steam geek"

Jason_44

Ok, I've read Dan's books on steam systems ("Lost Art" and "We got steam heat").

I've lived with my one-pipe steam system for about 4 years. It's always banged and always hissed. At my request, my oil-company guys moved a couple of radiators and now everything is worse. I've got banging all over the place, wet steam, water spitting out of brand-new vents. I've tried everything -- pitching radiators, insulating pipes, replacing shut-off valves, installing a new main vent. I get the boiler and burner clean & serviced every year. Nothing is working right. I've had it!

I need a steam genius in the Boston area! Utica boiler is about 10 years old, installed by my local oil company. 1-pipe steam system, oil fired. Pictures of near-boiler piping attached (which I believe to be totally screwed up).

I'm also including a scanned image from one of Dan's books. It shows 2 risers coming from a steam boiler. My boiler has 2 tappings on top, but only one riser and one of those "ever hot" gizmos. Could this be causing my wet steam problem?

If you're a contractor and a steam genius in the Boston area, please look at the pics and send me your contact info. My email is producerboy@mac.com.

Thanks.

Jason White

Norm Harvey

Where are you located? I am going to be in watertown thursday (tomorrow) afternoon maybe I could stop by and take a look

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Charlie from wmass

Jason I am 2 1/2 hours west of boston I think the driving time would be an issue. but this looks like a low bidder job for sure. I used to think the hacks were only in the small towns and the country. Guess they have passports to all parts of the state.

GW

ok

There's no header. I'm not familiar with the broinze looking beast; what is it?

Is the water clean in the boiler?

I bet the original system was installed by Joe Six-Pack back in '47, make sure all the distribution piping is good as well.

gary

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GW

Ok Ok

I've only consumed one St Pauli Girl (one's my limit), but that piping looks a little rough, does anyone disagree?

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Steamhead (in transit)

That piping is totally wrong

It needs to be ripped out and redone by someone who knows their business. Period. Two risers to a 2-1/2" or 3" drop header, and an individual take-off for each main, will make that boiler sing.

The bronze device is a steam separator. It's supposed to let the water drop out of the rising steam. With proper piping you don't need a crutch like that.

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joel_19

where?

Where is this we service metrowest and could do it. Steam head is right that is totaly wrong and should be redone.

Leo_17

Eve Hot gizmo

The Ever Hot gizmo is a surge supressor or as SteamHead said a water seperator. They are used to compensate for poor piping or failure to skim the boiler. They are very rare in my area. Dan references them I think in the Lost Art but all he does is state they are available he neither recommends or criticizes them. You're piping is a quickie job and that boiler generally has high stack temps.

Leo

Charlie from wmass

Steamhead When I come across a system like this I often wonder with all the repiping involved does it not worrant a new boiler? I mena by the time I mess around with the old , probably miss sized unit, as I doubt if they piped it that way the bothered doing a proper load calculation, would the cost of a new boiler really be that out of line? I understand budgets come into play.

Brad White_203

Jason

To quote my 12 year old step-daughter, "My Eyes are Burning!".

(Usually given to a particular item or combination of clothing items I am wearing, but the boiler install has the same effect..

Man, is that ugly...

All of the MA folks posting here are excellent choices depending on where you live and their service range. I know Norm Harvey and his work personally and can vouch for that but the others have excellent reputations which go before them.

Just to be clear, this is not to exclude anyone- if they hang out here, they "Get It". You ought not have to live with a system so abused.

So, where are you located?

nicholas bonham-carter

steam priorities

i would suggest the following items in order of importance
1.measure radiators and calculate the connected load.is it within the limits of the present boiler[even with downfiring?]charlie-w.mass makes an important point!
2.verify that your water is clean.if not clean the boiler by skimming.
3.get a good low pressure gauge,install next to the pressuretrol and verify that your system pressure is as LOW as possible.[gaugestore.com]
4.put a new vent on at the end of the dry return, next to the boiler.
5.observe the operation now as the low pressure will probably show up any sags in piping.if one area hammers check the slope with a level [and respirator!]
6.finally redo steam distribution piping.if there are severe budgetary restraints, maybe as a temporary solution for a short time; the copper could be reused, but modified to be a proper header.now that i look again i see it looks rather small diameter for that.the "gizmo" would make a very nice table lamp if polished up!
i dont know whether you have ever experienced the silence and comfort of a properly setup steam system.when your genius straightens this out for you [and shows you how to do some work yourself],you will wonder how you put up with the problems for so long.good luck--nbc

Paul Fredricks_9

Lots of good points here.

Judging by the pitch and piping, unless I'm just missing something, this is a counterflow system. That's why the piping seems quite nuts. There is no return to speak of as the condensate comes back down the supply piping. There are 2 drip legs to reduce the condensate from dumping back in the top of the boiler.

Too much steam velocity will cause the condensate to back up in the piping and back up to the radiators. I'm not the expert on these systems, but I believe fast venting is the enemy here. The mains should have vents at the ends, away from the boiler.

I had similar problems with one of our customers systems, lots of spitting at the radiator vents. I put Varivents on and slowed them way down. This seemed to help a lot.

The main problem was the boiler was over sized. I spoke with the boiler manufacturer and explained the problem. They told me how far I could downfire the unit and still be safe. Still too much for the house, but things are more controlled now. As stated, start by checking the size versus radiation.

Norm Harvey

I vote Joel!

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Steamhead (in transit)

I find

that if you do a good drop header, it will easily adapt to a new boiler. Pipe it with that in mind.

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Charlie from wmass

Just occured to me the return line may also be plugged. I am sure a repipe of at least the header and a look over the returns, probably need to be changed to the old water line of the first boiler. You should be all right the boiler is a brand we have had good luck with as far as being a work horse so it should be worth the time to pipe it right.

Brad White_203

I second Joel

especially based on proximity.

Bob Flanagan_3

As my daughter would say in a text message....

OMG!!!!!

Dan C.

Where in Boston area are you? If it doesn't need to be done in the next few weeks I could help you.

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Jason_44

Could you be more specific?

V8toilet

WOW!

That is a counter flow system for sure. The drip just after the riser probably isn't even catching all of the returning condensate because it's not pointing downward. There isn't an equalizer either so as the boiler pressure builds the condensate just backs up the returns.

That system is always going to hammer until you fix that near boiler piping. Listen to steamhead; he's right.

Lyle {pheloa} Carter

Piping

I don't think this was a counter flow system until it was piped by these genieus. The feed and return was reversed from the original system .

Mitch_6

Most likely needs to be re piped

and a proper main run, You do not need the surge tank on the feed.

Sometimes all the piping is wrong but they system can function. I have had several occasions that the system was a mess but no one ever cleaned the pig tail and possibly skim the system and add some treatment to the water. Not to say that this will work in your application just that it may be worth a shot.

You are most likely looking at two one man days to re fit the near boiler then about $1,000.00 in material and that is just near boiler if you are running new mains it all changes.

What is the size of the house how many stories and does the top floor have an accessible attic. Hate to say it but if the repairs are two extensive you may want to swap to something you can zone and get some efficacy. I have saved alot of steam systems but in the end its still just one big zone. Lately anything requiring alot of refitting I just change into forced hot water or hydro air.

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Paul Fredricks_8

I don't think the condensate would back up the returns, they're too short. In fact, if I remember correctly (can't find my copy of Dan's book) a counter flow doesn't need any of that. The Hartford loop is useless and might actually be plugged, forcing the condenste coming back down that drip to back up into the rest of the piping. That could certainly cause wetter steam.

To me, a check of the boiler size versus the radiation is the first thing to do. If the boiler is over sized figure out if it can be down sized to limit steam production. Counterflows aren't forgiving when it comes to excessive steam. The piping was sized originally for a certain amount of steam and condesate to occupy the same piping. Adding more steam negatively affects the return of the condensate.

joel_19

thanks!

drop headers rule we try and do them all the time. We've got a Utica to repipe next week that keeps flooding because the autofeed wigs out since all the water gets sucked out in about 3 minutes. We suspect a drop header with two risers will cure that one as well.

Norm Harvey

Fantastic work Joel!

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Noel Kelly_3

The proof is in the pudding...

Way to go Joel! This exemplifies the difference between those that do and those that know. Or...there are always two ways to do something - the right way and... Now, take a moment to think about all of the steam systems that are out there and how many of them are operating below par. And think about the fuel (thinking globally here) that is being wasted. Add the annoyance that many associate with steam heat - it is what it is. I won't go into detail but when I get an inquiry from someone with a steam system wishing to convert to FHW I always recommend a competent contractor (i.e. I refer them to http://www.heatinghelp.com/getlisted.cfm) to review their current situation. I love steam heat. Over the years I have found that the most comfortable homes are heated with steam - when done right. And there is no reason that such a system should be any less efficient that any other system - if done right. Thanks Joel for showing that the proof IS in the pudding. And thank you Dan for creating the environment for this to happen.

bob young

sawzall time

the dude that piped that mess out needs to be institutionalized.