Does the low water test make my system less efficient?

brad_26

I have a new Megasteam Boiler that was installed a couple weeks ago. On the system is a low water cut-off and an automatic water feed. Every ten minutes the low water cut-off turns the burner off and tests the system. During this time I can hear radiators in nearly every room sucking air into the system until the boiler kicks back on. I worry that if my system is sucking in 65 degree air to fill the void caused by condensing steam every 10 minutes then I'm effectively short cycling my boiler and not getting the efficiency that I should have. Any thoughts?

nicholas bonham-carter

lwco

are you sure the system is cutting off on low water, and not pressure?if low water check for water cleanliness.dirty water [especially with oil in it]will overboil and shoot water out into the pipes instead of just dry steam. how quickly will the water return if you switch off the boiler after the lwco has cut off the flame?
get yourself one of the excellent books on this site which will enable you to diagnose [and sometimes repair] system problems, especially in regards to dirty water.--nbc

Norm Harvey

I hate that intermitent level test. In fact, I have had many problems with the hydro level controls that come with the megasteams.

You can disable the level test via some wiring. Any time I have problems with the hydro level, I dont bother RMAing it for warranty, I just pay out of pocket for a McDonnell Miller.


But I agree, I would say the intermittent level test does reduce, at least, steady state efficiency.


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Charlie from wmass

Can you send a few pics of the near boiler piping and the return lines?

brad_26

I've attached some pictures of the boiler piping.

brad_26

I think that the system is cutting off because the Hydro-Level control is doing an intermittent low level water test (there is a light that turns on when the controller is testing the system). When it does this test the control turns off the burner, takes a minute to test the water level, then the burner turns back on and the system fires for about 10 minutes, rewind, repeat until the house is up to temp.

The system has been flushed twice after the install, the water level is adequate and the level bounces by about 1/4 to 1/2 inch while the system is firing. Please let me know if you still think that dirty water or pressure could be the problem.

brad_26

What sort of problems have you had with the Hydro Level? Also, can you let me know what RMAing means?

Norm Harvey

Wow!

Theres no overhead thermal cut off switch, the electrical conduit should be rigid comming from that thermal switch to the service mans switch which doesnt exist either.

The oil line is un supported comming down from the ceiling and across the joist bays.

The pex water line hanging all over the place is just unprofessional and ugly.

The header isnt "proper" due to the bullhead tee.

I only see one return piped into the system. is the other not pictured or is one of them supposed to be counter flow thats missing a drip?

Wow,.. thats a bad one. With more pictures we could probably find alot more wrong

Also, Insulat that floor! Save some cash instead of heating the basement.

Edit: You know Im not so sure that the main steam piping is wrong. Come to think of it, I think that the steam side bull head tee thing is fine. I may have worked myself up too much there.

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Norm Harvey

One problem was the burner would never come back on after the level test, unless you killed power to the unit then re applied power (turning the switch on and off) Another had a short in the circut board from the factoy between power and neutral causing the circut breaker to trip.

RMA stands for Returned Merchandise Aquisition thats the slip I get saying that my supplier accepted the deffective part for warranty.

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EdyLogicMstr.

CycleGard l.w.c.o.

The company I work @ installs Peerless steam boilers and they are now shipped with the CycleGard CG450. I have had numerous complaints from homeowners that wonder about the intermittent water level test, because they are so used to having a steamer that ran for extended periods of time during a call for heat. Recently, we have had situations during the sumer months where these boilers equipped with tankless coils have not been able to provide adequate supplies of hot water due to this feature that shuts the burner down every 10, 15, or 20 minutes for 90 seconds depending on the specific model used. Hydrolevel in fact makes a CGT450. "T" for tankless coil equipped boilers that we have used instead of the CG450, but Peerless does not recommend it as they are not satisfied with testing that was carried out with this control. The reps from Peerless told me that they are highly concerned with "foaming" and false water levels that occur in steam boilers so they are all in favor of shutting the boilers down every 15 minutes to insure that all condensate returns to their boiler and any low water condition can be overcome. Apparently they would rather have a homeowner have an issue with hot water production over a possible cracked boiler due to low water etc. They even suggested that if we chose to use the CGT450 instead of the CG450 that it could void the boiler warranty.
There is an alternative way to wire these controls which allows them to enter into this test period only after the burner has actually been running for a full 10, 15 or 20 minutes but this is not the way it is shipped/wired from the factory. Use your own discretion or choose another l.w.c.o.
I wonder what Dan's "dead men" would have to say on this topic if they were here today?

brad_26

Hmm, I need to educate myself on this before I go back to the installer. I've spent some time doing a little research and I've also read through the boilers Install Manual so I know just enough to figure out that the install wasn't perfect.

Can you let me know how you would correct these items:

What does the overhead cut off switch take care of and where would you install it?

How would you support the oil line and the pex tubing?

What would make the header proper?

I need to read about the correct type of return. I think that there is only one return (one loop for the whole house). I will check into this tonight.

Floor Insulation is something that I will do but I need to get my boiler issue figured out first. I spent $6200 for a professional install because I thought I was better off paying for the service rather then spend all my time learning and doing it myself.

Thanks for your input Norm. I appreciate the feedback.

brad_26

Thanks Lawrence. Do you know if rewiring the control voids the warranty? I'd love to have this thing test after 20 minutes of operation.

Norm Harvey

The two attachments show how the oil line should be properly supported on strapping as it traverses joist bays. The oil line is also supported as it goes to the floor by electrical conduit.

I dont have any pictures that show a good picture of a thermal switch nut it should be located directly above the boiler, and there should be a hard conduit going to a service mans switch as shown in the buderus picture. The service switch is that red plate on the right side of the boiler.


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Chips

Norm, I am trying to disable the water level test on my CG450. I talked to hydrolevel today and they said it can't be done and I would need a different controller. If you have figured out a way to do it? I would sure appreciate the help. Thanks Chips

Norm Harvey

When I get a chance chips Ill email you a sketch, but I recommend replacing it with a mcdonnel miller. Fooling around with the wiring is something that can be done to get you by untill you order in a different control. I wouldnt want to run the hydro level that way due to warranty issues.

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Chips

Thanks Norm, Thats what I plan on doing but it's getting COLD here in Alaska. Chips
Norm I just noticed my e-mail is wrong in my first post I will edit it now

Vinnie Smedick_3

Norm

Norm,
No Logamatic Control on that boiler? Such a beautiful boiler why waste all that fuel oil?

Norm Harvey

Thats the Home owner man. They wanted to wait untill "next year" to install the control rather then shell out the extra cash at the time of the install. I didnt object too much because I do like reasons to get into a customers house again. I think it builds a good relationship rather than the wham bam than you ma'am thing.

This year IS "next year" so I think I will pick up the phone when I get some time in my schedule.

Thanks for the reminder.

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