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End Switch not working on zone valve

Brian_70
Brian_70 Member Posts: 15
The tank is sitting on 5'x5'x 6" think cement pads. Yes those are expansion tanks, I removed from a large boiler used in an elementry school, they are 80 gallons each. Building inspector ???.. I live in a very small town in maine no need for building inspectors, were on own.

Comments

  • Brian_70
    Brian_70 Member Posts: 15
    Endswitch not working on zone valve

    The end switch on one of my honeywell zone valves model v8043f1036 is not starting my circulator. The valve is opening and closing fine when I turn up and down my thermostat. Any ideas ? Will replacing the motor fix this problem ?
  • Jump out the

    end switch terminals on the valve, does the circulator and burner start? If so then your end switch may be bad, or the motor may not be allowing full opening. In that case replace the zone valve head.

    When you jump out the end switch see if both sides of the zone valve get hot if so then it is probably opening and the end switch is bad.

    Motors and switches are supposed to be able to be field replaced but try getting them all alone. Replace the head is the best solution.
  • Brian_70
    Brian_70 Member Posts: 15
    Jump Out ?

    What do you mean by jump out ?

    Thanks,

    Brian
  • lee_7
    lee_7 Member Posts: 458


    me thinks it is time to call in a pro
  • Brian_70
    Brian_70 Member Posts: 15


    I have never called a "pro" to do anything and I certinly don't plan to now. Maybe I am in the wrong place. I thought that was the purpose of this board, to ask questions. I am pretty sure I typed in www.heatinghelp.com, doesn't the name say it all
  • paul_91
    paul_91 Member Posts: 62
    END SWITCH

    ON THOSE ZONE VLVES THERE ARE 4 WIRES ..WHEN YOU TURN YOUR THERMOSTAT UP AND THE VALVE OPENS AND THE BURNER OR CIRCULATOR DO NOT COME ON TAKE THE PLATE OFF OF THE VALVE AND YOU WILL SEE 2 RED WIRES , TAKE THE WIRE NUTS OFF AND TOUCH THEM TOGETHER ..IF THE BURNER OR CIRCULATOR COME ON CHANGE THE VALVE MOTOR
    Maxplatinum
  • Darrell
    Darrell Member Posts: 303


    9 times out of 10 the new motor will only work for a short time on the v8043...honeywell doesn't know there is a problem with the thing, or I'm sure they'd fix it! I never just top the v8043...I rebuild the whole thing with new guts and a new top. The packing on the swing arm gets tight and the motor wimps out. It will open almost all the way, but it won't tap the end switch.

    Have fun...but, there is a time to call a professional.

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  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,280


    9 out of 10 Times? System Fluid..

    I have found that System Fluid is the cause for many Problems in Modern Hydronic heating systems..

    Yes the Motor will "wimp out" when subjected to an hard to turn Shaft, in this case,yes i do change the entire body also, but the system fluid shall also be looked at!!

    BTW: Caleffi makes an wonderful valve with an good track record.

    Why not try one of these? or is it just "Easier" to constantly change these valve heads..

    Richard from Heatmeister
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,459
    1st, that kind of response won't get you much here, 2nd Help

    The zone valve has 2 teminals marked end switch. These 2 wires, and only the 2 marked "end switch" can be taken loose from terminals and tied together to see if the problem is in the motor. After tied together, make sure zone valve is calling for heat. If pump comes on then, bad zone valve operator. You do not need to take cover off of zone valve to do this. Just make sure you connect the end switch wires together or you will burn up transformer..... Good luck, Tim
    Maxplatinum
  • Darrell
    Darrell Member Posts: 303


    The incidence of failure is slightly higher with antifreeze than without...but the incidence of failure is high regardless. If you send them in Honeywell blames the wiring...but that is decidedly not a factor. I run across old V8043's all the time that are still working after many years...but the new ones don't last...something changed on the manufacturing end.

    Depending on the willingness of the owner I either rebuild it just like original, or I replace it with another zone valve and I prefer the Taco because it just works...and I do them all at the same time and I use the ZVC controler when I do it.



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  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    5 to 6 years

    Is about all the time your gonna get. The older style still work after 30 years. Often the flimsey gear mechanism is bent and the gears stripped.
    You can remove the cover, get some reading glasses and a light, and locate the button that activates the end switch. Push it in, and the boiler should activate. Then watch the mechanism to see if it moves all the way over and pushes the button when there is a call for heat.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,280
    Taco 571

    I've also noticed that the 30 even 40 year old Honeywell's were build better and some of them are still working today as we type.

    Darrell, I also used to use the Taco 571 Zone valves (Real work horse) but i do not like the amp draw on these valves .9 amps... compared to Caleffi's or Oventrops .2 amps


    The one thing that i do not understand:

    Why is it that when the taco ZVC box is subjected to the Taco 571 valves and there is a call for heat and all of the zonevalves turn on at once(coming out of reset) the fuse will blow and cause an "No Heat call"???

    (The ZVC cannot handle the load of they're own zonevalves)!!

    If you like the Taco ZVC boxes, i Think you will LOVE the Iworx Zone control box:

    It cost about the same and has better features i.e:

    The possibility of an 1hr priority limit on the domestic Hot water production(which can keep an house from an freeze up).

    Indicators are on the front of it..

    Or: Just replacing the Relays on the board instead of replacing the entire ZVC Box(Throwing it out) and the energy that it took to manufacture it..


    Just what i am seeing and doing out in the field..Heatmeister.


  • "I have never called a "pro" to do anything and I certinly don't plan to now."

    Lovely, have a "nice day"...

    oops, there goes that stress thing again ;)
    kipbrau
  • Joannie_15
    Joannie_15 Member Posts: 115
    Hmmmm....

    You don't even know what "jump" means, and you want to work on your heating system? That's why he said it's time to call in a pro. He's afraid for your safety.
    kipbrau
  • My thoughts exactly...

    !
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,097
    end switches

    actually end switches do have a minimum and maximun switching rating.

    Often only the max rating is published. Sometimes the relays, triggered by the end switch, do not present enough of a load. 100 miliamp min. is suggested by some of the end switch manufacturers. Relay "boxes" sometimes only have a 50 milliamp current draw.

    Too little of a current can cause the points to not "wipe" and seal properly, leading to early failure.

    Luckily one manufacturer has addressed this and will offer it's zone valves with reed switches for end switching. A reed switch is a hermetically sealed switched designed for low current applications. You often see them on alarm systems as door switches, etc. Being sealed they work well in harsh enviroments, also.

    Instead of problematic cam to operate the switch, it will be operated by a magnet.

    Another issue with end switches can be the air quality in the mechanical room! in one case a boiler with a vent damper was spilling byproducts of combustion, sulpher among them which attacks the silver switch contact points, causing them to fail.

    If you have a job where end switch failures are frequent, look for another cause like low current draw or lack of combustion air.

    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 628


    Taco zonevalve are not a constant .9 amp load on the transformer. The valve load changes from approximately .4 through .9. This is why Taco advocates 1 40va transformer per 3 taco zonevalve. The ZVC board uses a slow blow 1 amp fuse to handle the high load when all the valves are calling simultaneously.
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • Brian_70
    Brian_70 Member Posts: 15
    thanks for the help

    I do appreciate your concearn for my saftey. I take pride in the fact that I do any and all repairs and projects on my own without the help of a "pro". Don't get me wrong there are many people and situations that require the knowledge of a pro, I know first hand from the field that I am a pro in. I would just replace the whole zone vale for about $60.00 before I called a pro in to repair it. My reply probably wasn't called for but it was not hard for several people to tell me to just connect the two end switch wires togather. I have just finished installing a tarm wood gasifaction boiler along with 1500 gallons of pressurized storage so I feel confident enough to play around with a zone valve.

    again thanks for the thought

    Brian
  • Your remarks,,,

    came off as being a little harsh towards those of us who make a living doing this. Plus the phrase "jump out" is a very basic bit of terminology and for you to not know what it means raises eyebrows immediately. Thing is, if we give you advice and you manage to hurt yourself somehow while following it, it would not be a good thing for any of us. We're more than happy to give this kind of advice to other professionals but not so much to an amateur. We'd love to see pictures of your install but be prepared for a brutally honest critique or two.
    kipbrau
  • Brian_70
    Brian_70 Member Posts: 15
    Here is the install

    Feel free to critique, but I am totaly happy with the install.... and, oh yeah absoulutly no help from a pro..
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,280
    5 Year Warranty

    1 amp will be the wrong fuse!?. On the larger ZVC boxes it is a 6amp? which i have seen blow the fuses on many occasions(Even with the proper fuse!).

    Maybe "they" Changed it to an 7amp now? not sure!

    I like the Iworx better for now ..(VPC series )they have so much confident in that control that they offer an 5 Year Warranty!
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    I'll be darned

    I never woulda thought of that. But of the hundreds of bad end switches, I think 98% or so are in crotchety old 70's boiler rooms where combustion air was avoided whenever possible. "You don't need it; all it does is freeze the pipes". Now I'm gonna dissect a few and see what the contacts look like compared to new ones.
  • Darrell
    Darrell Member Posts: 303


    The V8043 switch failures that I see are nearly 100 percent the failure of the motor to swing the arm far enough to tap the button...

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  • The only thing,,,

    I can make out is the tanks on the wood and cinder blocks. Are those expansion tanks? Did your local building official inspect and sign off on that?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,097
    look for a zone valve

    that has an actual transmission inside, not just a stamped sheetmetal cog running against a brass pinion on the motor.

    This valve uses a "lost motion" gear. It's a gear with a slot cut in the bottom allowing a 270 degree movement. Maybe you can see it in this picture. The lost motion allows the motor to start turning without the load against it, and when the valve closes the spring tension is not against the motor, at rest, just the valve.

    It also uses a wound spring instead of a pull back type spring. Every spring is wound after the valve is assembled to the exact correct tension, so shut off pressure is consistent.

    The gears all run on hardened shaft in bronze bushings.

    A plastic case prevents the fluid temperature from getting to the motor as heat is what eventually causes all motors to fail.

    A lot more engineering in a quality zone valve than you might expect.

    hr

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • So your town has

    no building official and requires no permits be pulled?

    How many gallons of water does the system hold, excluding the tanks?

    Normally we'd install expansion tanks like that above the boiler/piping and connect them to the air separator so that any air in the system will naturally find it's way upward into them. We even go so far as to pitch any horizontal runs of the piping upward towards the tanks to facilitate the movement of the air. What is the red piping material? It looks like rubber hose.
  • Derheatmeister
    Derheatmeister Member Posts: 1,280


    I think he saying that the state inspector did not "see" it go into the basement.
  • Wink wink...

    ;)
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    I'd say 70%

    of the failures the mechanism will no longer move far enough to push the button. But a lot of them just cease to "wipe" as HR says. I found another one today.
  • Brian_70
    Brian_70 Member Posts: 15
    No inspection required

    Yes, my town does have a building inspector but there is no inspections or permits required for a boiler instalition in an existing home. As for a state inspector no such thing here. I had the insurance company look it over and they gave me the o.k.....
    The expansion tank is on the floor in the basement and my boiler/tank is in my barn... I havn't had any problems with air in the sytem and the tank works quite well. Both expansion tanks gets about 2/3 full and the system stays at 11 PSI. There is about 1500 gallon of water in the system. The rubber hose is Goodyear Horizon hose, good up to 240 degrees and 80 psi. I used it to run from my boiler/tank to the feed and return in the basement. Its great stuff and commonly used in many of the people mills I do work in here in Maine.
  • See,

    that's the difference between a "pro" as you put it and an amateur. There's not a trained and qualified person on this board that would consider putting rubber hose in a heating system like that. I don't care how good it is, PEX maybe but never rubber hose. Why? Because we know better PLUS if it lets go we are liable and we could lose our shirts, especially if someone gets hurt. If yours lets go you just have to deal with 1500 gallons of piping hot water in your basement and hope that the insurance company covers it and hope especially that noone gets hurt. Unless you're really lucky, it'll come back and bite you on the butt some day. Hopefully at noones expense but your own. You go ahead and keep kidding yourself about how you did a good job and you're happy with the install, the "pros" here are most likely emitting slow whistles and shaking their collective heads just looking at that one picture, I know I am and I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg. Sorry, but that's my brutally honest opinion.
    kipbrau
  • Brian_70
    Brian_70 Member Posts: 15


    I dont really want to make a stupid argument out of a simple qestion I asked but... Trust me on the goodyear Horizion hose it is great stuff. I can't take the credit for the idea of using the hose though. It came highly reconmened from several people from a different forum that deals with wood boilers. One guy has had it buried underground for over 20 years with no problems. My tank is in my barn and if the hose does go, oh well I will just fix it and fill the tank agin, no big deal. Don't worry, I am sure you are quite smarter than I am. All I do is just research and try to educate myself in whatever project I do, and when I don't know something I ask a question from someone that does, kinda like I did here about the zone valve remember... P.S. I connected (JUMPED) the endswitch wires on the zone valve and the circ. did not start, So rather than waste any more time messing with it I just solder in a whole new zone vale that i already had on hand. Job complete.
  • You were doing fine,,,

    until the flippant remark about "pros". You posted pix and braved an opinion, I gave you one. Nothing says we have to agree. Have a good one...
    kipbrau
  • Hendy
    Hendy Member Posts: 1
    Might try this for the zone valve

    I am a rep for a prominent water heater manufacturer and we have had issues with our vent dampers over time that use a zone valve motor with an end switch. These units are test fired at the plant but once they are packaged up and travel across the continent in and out of trucks and rail cars they tend to get banged around a bit. This can cause the zone valve motor to shift ever so slightly but enough to make it so the end switch doesn't make. I have found over time that instead of replacing the motor, as we did in the beginning, there are a couple of screws that hold the motor in place and by simply loosening them and making a slight adjustment in the placement of the motor that the end switch makes and the damper works properly after that. I'm most likely a little late but food for thought for anyone else down the road.
    Cheers all.


  • If jumping the end switch leads didn't start the circ, then a new zone valve isn't going to fix the problem. But if you want to change a whole lot of parts to figure out the problem, the economy could use the boost. Thanks for the help.

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    Maxplatinum
This discussion has been closed.