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mod con juice use

We're entering into a new era where energy consumption and circulators/pumps are concerned. Low-wattage consumption is the new order of the day.

Comments

  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
    mod con juice use

    I've had two customers recently report 30%+ savings with their Vitodens,but both swear their electric ussage was higher and blame the boiler.that's the first time anyone has said that. In both cases they had old 110 series circs which uses more juice than a cartridge circ so that ought to be less,except now they are getting longer zone on time. also there is the internal fan on the boiler itself but that doesn't draw many amps.

    anybody else have folks telling them this?
  • Brad White_201
    Brad White_201 Member Posts: 52
    Yes, Joel

    I am glad you are asking this...

    Recently, (Sept. 13th to be precise), I installed ("installed" meaning "plugged in") a P3 "Kill-A-Watt" metering device because, yes, we did notice an uptick in electrical usage when the Vitodens 200 was installed in November of 2006.

    In the past 30 days, as of just moments ago, it has logged 84.47 kWH power used. That is over 20 kWH per week or 2.8+ kWH per day. This is exclusive of the secondary circulator and DHW circulator (booster to the SuperStor).

    The other part is, the internal circulator seems to be running at full speed but that could be my imagination. I have not put an Amp meter on that circuit. But the total of the blower and internal circulator seems high.

    So, yes, I have noticed that too and finally measured it. I am going to review my coding to see if setting the circulator to a higher RPM is a fixed value versus and allowed maximum.

    My experience anyway.
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
    bumped

    bumped up: nobody else? where is Hot Rod,Dave Yates, Mark E?? figure somebody else must have heard
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,663
    Brad...

    Have you tried setting the internal pump at 65% ? That's the default setting.

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  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    Sir Brad

    With that kill-o-watt you should be able to isolate loads. How many watts or amps for just the transformer. Then add the idle load when there is no DHW or CH being done you have the transformer and also the CPU. Next when on a post purge you can get the pump load isolated. After that it is fan.
  • 1bourbon
    1bourbon Member Posts: 25
    eye-opening

    Around here, that would be $18.50 per month, or nearly $170 per heating season. And it would go up 5-10% per year.

    85 kWh is also about 6% of the total monthly use of a typical single-family residence. That would be clearly visible, as you have seen (pun intended...).

    Non-trivial.
  • Brad White_200
    Brad White_200 Member Posts: 148
    Sir Uni

    I will have to lurk and see- good point on hitting those buttons. I will also set back my default circulator to 65% as Paul suggested.

    I have the K-O-W plugged in to the Brickwall Surge Suppressor, then the power pack plugs into that. Thus, it takes the entire load and any inefficiencies of the power pack, but I think you know this.

    Thanks!

    Brad

  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Predictable Consumption - How Many Circulators???

    Do you have space heating "on" or is this for DHW production and space heat standby?

    ----------------------------------------

    Found this old post from Constantin:

    ... I saw a chart at ACEEE recently and was floored by the the differences in electrical consumption of very thermally-efficient boilers. Here are the annual electrical needs of some boilers in the same kBTU range:

    Burnham Opus: 326 kWh (!!!)

    Burnham Revolution: 314 kWh

    Weil-Mc Ultra: 139kWh

    Viessmann Vitodens: 48kWh

    I wish more folks would look at the electrical loads in addition to the thermal efficiency. After all, even though electrical energy is cheap now, it may not be in the future. Plus, if you're living off-grid, the electrical implications are quite important. Lastly, if a boiler lasts 20 years, as I believe a Vitodens will, then 20 years of $50 a year less in electrical consumption starts to add up.


    ----------------------------------------

    The latest "GAMA certificate" for the Vitodens 6-24 (no built-in DHW) shows a far higher annual consumption of 483 kW/year

    -----------------------------------------------------

    The difference would appear to be the built-in circulator. None of the other boilers in the list have such, so it was not included and amounts to 4 kWH/month

    The internal circulator is labeled for 50W - 100W consumption.

    Assuming constant circulation at full output at 90% efficiency to allow for transformer loss, the circulator would counsume about 80 kWH + 4 kWH = 84 kWH/month, so I assume your circulator is running constantly at 100% -- just like mine.

    I studied the last eight years records (four with Vitodens 200 6-24 ; four with W/M & B&G 100 circulator) of constant circulation and find that consumption dropped by about 15 kWH/month.

    Didn't you replace a single circulator where the circulator ran in concert with the burner to a constant circulation system with primary/secondary? If so, I'd certainly expect to see an additional 70-80 kWH or so per month when space heating is not in standby. I would expect similar (if not significantly higher) consumption for typical secondary circulators, so with two circulators 160 kWH/month would be common. With multi-temp systems using three or more circulators, total electric consumption could become a major load.

    Use TRVs and pipe a single-temperature system for generously low head loss and you only need a single circulator with most mod-cons as long as you never exceed the maximum allowable boiler flow. Unmolested, former gravity systems are ideal for use with a single circulator.

    The extremely low consumption DC "smart" circulators available in the US must be used in "dumb" mode -- a carefully calculated fixed speed -- to be suitable for use with a single circulator system with a mod-con and TRVs.

    --------------------------------------------------

    Brad: Is your reset curve adjusted such that you maintain base temperature with the sun dial setting? If so, and if you've fully "opened" the circulator speed settings, the control is likely choosing the best circulator speed for overall efficiency. If your secondary flow is significantly above max primary flow (about 6.25 gpm), I would expect such to be 100%. With selective TRV use your secondary flow could be quite high. What is your estimate of secondary flow?

    High secondary flow forces the boiler to maintain the primary loop at higher and higher temperatures relative to the secondary and the control will want to minimize this primary temperature increase my maximizing primary flow rate.

    In my system, with a single circulator and near starvation "Eurocave" settings, 100% circulator operation is also the most efficient since it maximizes emitter output and thus system delta-t with return temperatures near the sun dial setting very common. By maximizing emitter output, 100% circulator operation and high system volume and mass minimize emitter delta-t to apprx 10F. As a consequence, HX delta-t is idealized (20F) at minimum burner output, the most common, non-batch firing level for my system.
  • PS_3
    PS_3 Member Posts: 28


    Joel,

    I documented an increase in kWh consumption after your guys installed my Vito 6-24 in 2005. I believe the constant circ vs On/Off had the greatest impact. As others have said, it was not insignificant, although I'd do it again as my gas consumption has decreased 44%.
  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,479
    Keep an eye oout

    for mod cons using ECM technology. Seems the next sensible step. Too bad the Wayco lab is full of beer. I'd start experiments right away. :S BTW Brad. I just got a Kill O Watt and am having a blast checking everything out. WW

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  • don_185
    don_185 Member Posts: 312
    Yeah

    Yeah what with you wetheads and technology it seem you are always behind the curve.

    Heck we on the airside just about have all our loads running on dc volts.

    Catchup if you can.................
  • CC.Rob_7
    CC.Rob_7 Member Posts: 17
    GAMA certs

    Prompted by Mike T.'s post, here's some GAMA certs for EAE. Numbers are in kWh/yr.

    Burnham Alpine 80 = 600

    Burnham Rev RV4 = 232

    Burnham Series 2 206, standing pilot = 124

    TT Solo 110 = 378

    W-M Ultra 80 = 141

    Vito 200 6/24 = 483

    Munchkin 80M = 543

    Knight 80 = 1167


    One question that leaps to mind is what the EAE is, and how it is calculated. In the modcons alone, the figures vary by a factor of 8 (Knight, Ultra).
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
    ps

    thanx for saying that you would do it again and that you saved 44%!!.

    Did you notice an increase in how comfortable the house is with the more constant circulation than you had before?.

    Would love to get an email quote about that to use on our next web site upgrade if you would be so kind.

    We have been installing some Wilo circs in the past year these are a ECM variable speed circ which will slow down as zones open and close with potential for significant savings. Can't replace the vito internal pump though.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,858
    And here, I thought someone'd found a viable use for condensate

    other than paint stripper :-)

    No, no complaints on excessive electrical charge.

    Even if they did see a slight up tick in electrical consumption, I am betting that their overall cash outlay for comfort has dropped significantly.

    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Passracitic Energy Consumption

    Passracitic? Not a misspelling: read on for why.

    Just back from San Diego & the Solar Power International conference & trade show. Nice to see HR and observe him working the crowded Caleffi booth - dang near needed a shoe-horn to carve out some breathing room! Trying to catch up. Not even sure I can anymore - so much to do - so little time.

    Yes, I too have been studying the power consumption side for a long time now. Started (in earnest) with my interest and entry into solar PV, which forces you to study where every watt is being consumed. Couple that with Siggy targeting energy transfer wattage consumption & it's been sort of a perfect storm brewing in my head. Every now & then, a lightening bolt flashes and sets off a firestorm of thinking, so I need to get this under control(G).

    My own boiler room with its 15 circs could serve as a poster child for parasitic energy losses and I'm way overdue for a system-wide energy makeover!

    The other side driving my interest is the pending deregulation of electric utilities come 2010 when our costs for each kWh will jump from 11-cents to 20-cents. I'm hoping to have my PV system up and running prior to that date so I can thumb my nose at the meter as it runs backwards(G). That's also the year I hope to have a plug-in hybrid. Much as I'd love to have a Tesla, I'd rather put my money up on the roof and reap the ROI until the day I'm carried out feet first.

    If I brought one thing, and one thing only, home from the solar conference, it was that the tide has turned and momentum is on our side for all things solar. Truth be told, I brought a mental overload of things home and plan to put them to work in my life moving forward.

    It IS high time we bring passrasitic (my term which combines passive and parasitic - we've been paassive about parasitic energy consumption: passrasitic) energy consumption to the forefront and confront our previously traditional and accepted practices. Thermal and electrical efficiencies are bonded to one another - we've just been concentrating on one without scrutinizing the other too closely. We have the capability to kick the arse of the air moving industry when it comes to passracitic energy consumption(G).
  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    Funny numbers...

    Okay, so I can see that number for my Solo 110. It uses 14 watts just to sit there and think, so there's 122 KWHs/year (14 x 365 x 24). Add another 85 watts for the fan and internal pump (the fan is minimal), assume 200 days and 15 hours per day on average and it's 378 KWHs total annually, just like the table says, which is pretty good considering one internal pump handles the monoflo and 2 loop of pex and plates in my house.

    I think the manufacturers just pay $50 and submit their numbers. W-M's numbers obviously don't include the pump and may not even include the fan. I'm not sure what the standby wattage is for the new Series 3 controller. The Ultra 105 and 155 numbers are even lower than the 80.
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
    $$$$

    jump from 11-20c a killowatt?? Umm it's 18 here already
  • depend$

    On where you live! One couple I spoke with in CA told me they pay 48-cents per kWh. It costs 30-cents per kWh for PV, 5-cents for coal, & 4-cents for nat gas.

    Costs for PV are coming down while costs for fossil fuels are rising. If we, as an industry (solar), move forward utilizing performance-based incentives where that performance is verified, then we'll potentially avoid the black-eye solar suffered in the early 70's.

    Now that the ITC removed the 30% cap for residential PV systems, our pending 20-cents per kWh will place our PV system at a break-even cost per kWh, but grant me a nice 11% ROI. As electric costs rise, the ROI improves and there's a nice bump-up in our real estate's value (don't tell the tax man!).
  • PS_3
    PS_3 Member Posts: 28
    Joel

    Comfort has definitely increased with the constant circulation vs the old on/off and temperature lags, as the space temperature stays rock solid and can be maintained at a lower overall temperature than before with the old system.

    I'd be happy to promote the benefits of my Vito. Give me a few days to get an email to you.
  • Paul B_5
    Paul B_5 Member Posts: 60


    Welcome to the world of solar Dave.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    pls explain???????

    sounds like you are going to produce 20% more electricity per day than you normally use?


    added:
    est:
    100 watt panel roughly costs $1000

    10 hours of sun a day will give you 1KWh or say 20 cent

    thats $73 a yr if you assume 10 hr of sun light/day

    over 13 yrs to pay for the panel.



    what is the power company paying for your electricity?

    i don't see where you'll get 11% payback???
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    bump

  • JP

    No, actually PA's net metering law has been interpreted by my local utility as them reimbursing the customer for the full anmount, but not directly. Here's how they are working the deal: two meters - one to measure what we draw from the gris and the second to measure what we pump into the grid. Excess kWh's go into a 'bank' account. If you produce more in total than you use over the course of the year, the account gets zeroed out and they get to keep the excess for free. So, that means I don't want to oversize my PV array by anything near 20%!

    My wholesale costs for my PV system, to offset my annual usage, with the 30% tax break will yield an 11% ROI. If I was presenting this to a customer with our mark-up and labor included, they would be seeing a 4% to 5% ROI.

    As our electric rates climb above 20-cents per kWh, the ROI will only improve.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    ROI

    so, how do you determine the customers nighttime electric use to determine panels necessary to always break even? seasonal too?

    else you can't determine ROI?

    do you have a monthly charge on the second meter?
  • Devil in the details!

    Well, that's the three gigawatt question! Everyone has their own "I gotta have that circuit on" list of must-haves. No two have been the same so far, but with a grid-connected system, that's not a hill on which we need to die.

    seasonal? You betcha. Just comparing FHA to FHW is a prime example of how we will be taking watts into serious consideration as the coming years roll by. 800 watts for a blower vs. 7 watts for a circ will entice more than a few folk to make the switch to hydronics.

    ROI, as you've correctly noted, depends on a multitude of factors. No one is better suited to help consumers bridge the gap between energy-waster to energy-guardian than the folks in the trenches who are freely invited into homes and businesses as trusted advisors.

    Don't yet know bout that second meter, but no doubt they'll figure out how to add a fee for hanging one on our homes.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    yep

    the details get tricky alright.

    I take it you mean 70 watt circs, not 7 watt?



  • Jim_64
    Jim_64 Member Posts: 253
    elec co.

    I have been told that NJ has a law that the elec co. has to pay you the renewable energy rate for all kw pumped back into the grid not the normal rate. This was lobbied by the renewable crowd to make an installation more financially attractive.
    Not being in NJ, I don't have first hand knowledge.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    talking about

    mark hunts circs?
  • no, but......

    every mfgr is working on various models.
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    which one?

    a 7 watt circ I'm very interested in?
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    7 watts not whole story

    according to brads post, his boiler require about 2.8 kwh/day, roughly a 500 watt panel running for 6 hours.

    looks like internal circs and blower fans need to be replaced with your 7 watt motors?
  • 20% of the world's produced electrical power

    goes to pumps. Virtually all single-speed pumps are oversized. In my own home, my 15-circs operating on outdoor reset will be on for approximately 5,000 run-hours each year. If mine was an old-style it's on/off full-bore boiler, I would expect to have 2,250 run-hours over an average winter's use. My outdoor reset curve is slightly elevated, so I'm not using constant circ. However, I do see much longer run cycles, so I used the 5,000 hour for my seasonal run hours.

    Based on that assumption, I will spend roughly $6,600.00 for the 15-circ electricity over a 20-year span if my electric rate were to remain at 11-cents per kWh. However, in 2010, we're expecting that to be 20-cents per kWh & my projected costs will then be $12,000.00.

    If, on the other hand, I install a circ that adjusts itself to changing loads and, therefore, adjusts its power consumption from 7-watts to a higher number and I add 14 low-watt zone valves, I would expect to spend $1,620.00 over 20-years if my circ averaged 25-watts, my ZV's used 4-watts (continuous powered open style - could cut consumption farther by utilizing a power-open/power-close ZV) & elec remained at 20-cents per kWh.

    Kinda leaves lots of room for a more expensive circ when you crunch the numbers(G).

    A new sales tool for the customer presentation! "Would it be ok if I give you and your family $10,000.00?" I think I know their answer(G).

    Just in time technology: visited a job site yesterday that would have had just as many pumps had I visited that site a year ago. I wasn't the only mech contractor to visit, but I was the only one who presented the owner with this tantalizing strategy.

    Who you gonna call? Watt-busters!
  • jp_2
    jp_2 Member Posts: 1,935
    why?

    why 15 pumps?

    I've asked on several occasions, why not tie similar sized zones together, no one has ever answered? don't some of those zones cause short cycling?

    you make a good point here. what is the best strategy, install a grid tie system or make the existing house more efficient, new washer, frig, etc... better heating system design?
    I'd put my money on the later.

    not even half the story here:
    A new sales tool for the customer presentation! "Would it be ok if I give you and your family $10,000.00?" I think I know their answer(G).

    please tell me how much money the customer has to give you to give them back this $500/yr? $40,000, $50,000 $80,000?????? who has this cash on hand? zero out any paid back if they borrow the money. what you are really telling them, you are going to give them $1.37/day?

    of course, doing the right thing, making us energy independent, I'm all for.
  • If

    the customer (as is the case for the job I looked at this past week, has already decided they are going to add zoning for each of their hydronic loops and add some radiant zones) will be installing the multi-zoned system anyway, then the cost for the system has already been justified in their mind(s). I see my responsibility as a designer to gather together a good, better, best set of designs and then let the customer decide what best fits their budget.

    That's step #1 - establishing the base cost. That's also where most mechanical contractors stop and where most fail in their presentation. At this point, it's a how much it costs game.

    Step #2, IMHO, is educating them as to why the 'best' approach is in their best interests. That includes cost projections for operating the good, better, best systems. This builds trust and trust trumps pricing.

    Step #3 - Defining the ROI. We are serving as an advisor and helping customers make better decisions regarding their investment in their largest investment - their home. As it stands right now - at this moment in history - we are in the cat bird's seat. No one - not their banker, not their investment broker, not the stock market - is in a better position to position them for the best ROI available today while moving them to a deeper shade of green.

    They'll be getting a good, better, best design strategy with pricing for each one, operating costs, and the ROI. What started them down the road they're on? They purchased Siggy's "Modern Hydronic Heating". Even though they don't fully comprehend what they've read, they know enough to know they can greatly improve their system's performance while, at the same time, reducing operating costs. The more ecucated they are, the more likely they'll see the wisdom of the 'best' option. I make green, they get greener & both sides win. One structure at a time!
  • joe_94
    joe_94 Member Posts: 39
    AFUE

    AFUE relates the output of a fuel utilization process to it's input. It might or might not be the same as steady state efficiency of a heating process.

    I have run across more than one instance where a retro-fit of a heating appliance resulted in less heating capability ... and more electrical usage due to increased running cycle.

    A proper retro-fit will result in the same heating capability with equal running cycle ... but result in less natural gas usage if the replacement appliance has a greater AFUE than the original.

    AFUE does not address electrical energy usage. AFUE does not imply more efficient heat (a violation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics .. there just isn't such a thing as more efficient heat because heat is not a process!). A BTU is what it's alway been ... and a retro-fit of any heating appliance requires an output heating capacity equal to the original appliance if equal heating performance is to be achieved.
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