Would anyone consider running a TT Prestige in an O2 environment

SciGuy

Here is the situation:

About 15 years ago we installed a radiant slab with some of that fantastic Radiant-tec non-barrier 7/8" tubing. Yes, I now know that this was a terrible choice and it has come back to haunt us. The system uses a little Dunkirk XEB-2 boiler with Watts tempering valve that has worked well all of this time. The problem is that the boiler was never isolated from the tubing and now has begun to lose pressure. We have replaced pressure tanks a couple of times over the years and this should have rung a huge bell.

On the brighter side, I've been lusting after one of those extremely quite and efficient Triange Tube Prestige boilers for some time and the new Solo 60 would be a great fit for our system. Would swapping the Solo's cast iron pump out with a bronze or stainless unit and installing a pressure tank suitable for potable water allow this unit to run in an O2 environment or should we pop for stainless heat exchanger, extra bronze pump and slightly increased complexity?

Doing a search for for a local pro showed none listed within 100 miles of our area.

Thanks so much for any informed replies.

Hugh

Warmfoot

Prestige with Heat Exchanger

We have installed a few TT Prestiges' with Heat Exchangers. Regardless of equipment, It is our policy to always install heat exchangers in existing systems that have non-02 tubing. We have seen too much "stuff" come out of those tubes, even with good cleanings and flushing.

We basically use the circulator in the boiler to circulate through the HX (Primary Loop). Depending on what size heat exchanger you use, you may have to upsize the circulator in the boiler.

Hope this Helps..

Ernie Bogue

Master Hydronics Aire Serv

Derheatmeister

First in the heat mecca!!

When the "Solo" or Prestige was first introduced to the High county (Colorado) i realized that the heatexchanger is made of 439 Stainless steel, which can be subjected to None Ox no problem!

Not that i would ever be Cheap like some of the contractors around me that use NoneOX to save a Penny and do such a Stupid thing!

But it is all around me!

And the boilers are falling apart with the original "Plumbers" not calling back!!!

So i Contacted TT and asked if i can use this boiler in this kind of environment given that there is no ferrous material in this equation!

After review by TT head engineering they approved it!

So 5 Years later,i've got about 20 TT in None Ox with all bronze and Strainers prior to boiler return,running good with no problems !!

Just be careful and reverse flush very good ,use Rhomar, make sure that even your fill valve is made of Brass/ Bronze..

I other Words:YES IT CAN BE DONE,BUT BE VERY CAREFUL!!!!!!!

Heatmeister..

plumbboy

heat exchanger

I would highly recommend the TT Prestige and I would absolutely use a heat exchanger just to protect myself as a contractor. If you do it this way just remember you need to duplicate your feed and purge and expansion tank on the boiler side and the heat side

Todd_33

Just curious if there is an efficiency loss by using the heat exchanger?

I am in the same boat.....But Richard is on his way to help me out soon

Derheatmeister

Bingo

Bingo,

You will still need to Treat the system and Reverse Flush the System to avoid debris from Clogging up your heat exchanger or causing your CU pipe to fail..

You will still need to Install an Strainer prior to your Exchanger..

You will still need an Domestic Expansion Tank on the None Ox side.

You will still have to monitor your PH and make sure that it does not go south.. I have seen exchangers deteriorate because the fluid was not Maintained..( try not to add Glycol if possible,Glycol lowers the Efficiency and the None Ox prematurely deteriorates the glycol which lowers the PH !


Things that you are Adding:

1. An Extra Circulating pump/Flanges and it's Added Amp Draw.

2. An Extra Stainless Steel Heatexchanger which are not Cheap!

3. An Extra Expansion Tank ( this can be an Small one)

4. An Extra Switching Relay and the Wiring to activate the additional Circ and it's added amp Draw.

5. An Extra Fill/Backflow Preventer.

6. All the Extra Piping/Fittings and Labor to assemble all of this !

7. More room! and in most cases they want to Squeeze us under the Stairs.. you all know what i am talking about.

I am the first that would add all of these things if they were necessary!
Again not only are you adding all of these extra Parts (I my Opinon)

You are also Adding the Extra Amp Draw of an additional Circ and an Transformer.

For the Heat exchanger to work you will need to increase your Supply temperature by approx 20 F which in turn will take your Boiler out of the Condensing mode and is very inefficient!

If you are taking the Boiler out of the Condensing mode why even install an Condenser???

Like i said before: This boiler can..and has been subjected to None Ox barrier tube for years with out any problems!

IF IT IS DONE THE PROPER WAY.

If one does not understand this concept leave the fingers away from it!

If it is not done the proper way you will void the warranty of the boiler/waterheater!

Heatmeister

SciGuy

Heatmeister,

Your reply is one that I was really hoping to hear. So it looks like:

1. Swap out cast iron pump with bronze ( I have a spare bronze Taco 007)

2. Small Potable water pressure tank.

3. Bronze stainer before boiler.

4. Bronze fill valve

5. Flush system very well. Its a single run (300 ft) of 7/8" pex.


This sounds like a plan we can live with.

Hugh

Derheatmeister

Are you using an Indirect Fired Waterheater in this Equation?

Tony_23

Bingo has been called

Richard's absolutely right.

I would add one thing. If you're worried about plugging up the very open, low head loss HX of the T-T, what do you think will happen to the SS brazed plate HX ? THOSE are tight !

tim smith

I 3rd the Bingo, good bucket strainer or y strainer, flush old

tubing first well, check water quality. Bronze pump and potable exp tank. I don't see a problem with this. TT boiler is my favorite by far. Just finished one on my house, one of my employees just put one in + appx the other 40 or so we have installed. Great piece of equipment.

SciGuy

We're looking at a 30 gallon HTP SuperStor. I would hope that its stainless heat exchanger would be fine with a bit of O2 on the boiler side as well as the potable side. Obviously the TT Smart tanks with there steel outer tank would be a no-no. Would you suggest any other?

Hugh

Derheatmeister

Heat flo

Super stor will do,Also advanced metalpress

I have been using the heat-flo indirects all of the connections are on top and that makes it nice for the install.(just screw the 1" Isoflange onto the 1" male threads install the Circulator and use Isoflange by sweat on the other side.

scott markle_2

Just did a training seminar on this boiler and the subject came up. Yes the boiler is approved this application (non-barrier tubing)

Earlier versions had ferrous circulator flanges, the new ones are chromed for O2 protection.

Derheatmeister

\"Isoflanges\"

On Earlier Version I would Remove the Flanges and Install "Isoflanges" which also make servicing the circulator easier.

scott markle_2

This term keeps coming up. What exactly do you mean by isoflange? I'm guessing your talking about the union style fitting that is incorporated into the body of european market (small) circulators.

If this is so, where do you get your isoflang style circulators? and for that mater the flanges? A brief look at the wilo catalog shows most of the circs with standard two hole flanges, I do see some bronze circs. pictured with the union fitting. Do you have to special order and pay a premium for this?

Paul Pollets

Iso

Most supply houses selling hydronics stock either the Grundfos iso flanges or a competitive brand. Yes, they cost more than the cast flanges as they have built-in ball valves.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Derheatmeister

Also made By Webstone

scott markle_2

are we talking about the same thing? Is this term just used to describe the standard two hole flange but one that incorporates an isolation valve and maybe a drain valve? like the kind made by webstone?

scott markle_2

Question resolved. I thought you were talking about circs. that have a threaded union incorporated in the body of the pump.

Derheatmeister

Unions on Circs are nice too!

Not very common in the USA, and not a bad idea for Job security(If that's you gig)/ Making it harder for the next "Service Tech" so that He/She can't just pop an regular Cast iron "007" into this equation!.

BTW: Apparently Wilos ECO although made of cast iron can be subjected to None OX because of the coating on the Volute.

Ted G

SciGuy

It may have been mentioned in this post already, but the HTP SSU-30 has a cupronickel heat exchanger. The tank is stainless.

SciGuy

Ted,

Cupronickel does equal impervious to O2 problems doesn't it?

Hugh