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Federal rescue and Solar
Dan Monsen
Member Posts: 13
Warren Buffett once said if there is class warfare, were winning!
Even if the top earners pay most of the tax it is still a lower percentage of their overall income compared with the lower middle class.
I dont think that is fair.
Even if the top earners pay most of the tax it is still a lower percentage of their overall income compared with the lower middle class.
I dont think that is fair.
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Comments
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The Federal rescue plan
was passed with an attachment that extended the Solar tax credits 8 years. It also took off the cap of $ 2000 on the photovoltaic panels. It's very weird how things get done in Washington. WW
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Also
my wallet is empty and my cat is missing. It IS strange how things work in D.C.!
Still, good news on the solar front. But did they not get the memo that "sunlight is the best disinfectant"?
As JohnNY says,
/rant0 -
Saw some of the pork
that was included in this bailout and it really upsets me. It goes to show that some politicians can not do what is right for everyone without some sort of corrupt reward for themselves or their special interest. If that could ever stop, we would actually have a chance of balancing the budget and letting the free market work its magic. Sorry to inject politics into this otherwise neutral forum but somewhere along the line, this kind of stuff has to stop and intelligent people like all here must help sort it out.
Ken f
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Pork
Just curious but what kind of pork did you see?0 -
Over 100 bllion dollars of it
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/04/johns.bailout.pork.cnn?iref=videosearch
Just what we need. More wasted money. But what is another 100 billion on top of 700. Almost unnoticale.
Ken F
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There ought to be a law against pork
but they would probably add pork to the bill that gets rid of it. :O In this case the Solar works to my benefit. Without theSolar incentives the paybacks make alternative energy only for the elite with expendable income. Another case of the rich getting richer. (Wish I was rich, Dam!) WW
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\"Pork\"
One person's "pork" is another person's bacon
There are lots of local projects funded by Federal tax dollars (which of course is all of our tax dollars and is less than "free" because you never get back the entire dollar you sent to D.C.).
Still, an Interstate highway bridge or water treatment project supportive of public health would overwhelm any local tax base, so, sure, we accept certain things like that which benefit just about everyone.
But $93 million to KY to promote the thoroughbred horse industry, (as was done some months ago, not under this bill) strikes me as a bit targeted to one elite group -and to support their hobby no less.
It is all "OPM"; Other People's Money.
Talk about a "moral hazard", a term coined by, IIRC, Adam Smith in the 1700's, to describe what happens when downside risk is eliminated. People become reckless when the downside is covered by "OPM".
Tax credits are of course "net off the tax bill", while "tax deductions", just lessen your exposure. Think of the gyrations people do to lessen their tax burden even on marginal rates. Now think of how one can use the tax code to affect (control) people's behavior. Can anyone deny that it does?
But that tax credit for solar, as you find out, is bread and butter for the manufacturers and installers. It privatizes spending in a way that benefits a broader spectrum.
I count my own situation in a vacuum and do not worry about someone else making a lawful living. But I also start by another basic premise:
The money I earn starts as 100% mine, not 100% of what is left after taxes. Government should justify why I am less entitled to what I earn.
Regardless, I always ignore the "rich getting richer" stuff. I never worry about "what the other guy has". That is what the political class would love. Tax breaks for the rich? Why not? In fact the top 1% pays almost 40% of the income taxes and the top 5% pay almost 60% of all income taxes. They are allowed to keep more of their own money for that is where it starts.
Sorry to rant, but that "rich getting richer" class warfare talk feeds into dividing Americans into groups to be pitted against each other.
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Happy yet somewhat disappointed
I am very happy to see the tax credit extended and the residential cap removed, but I am disappointed that the only way Congress seemed to be able to agree on this issue is by slipping it into the bailout.
Reuters
Environment News Service0 -
Gee Brad
Did I push a button? I actually don't disagree with you. I just said it mindlessly as I do most things. Sigh! I actually got an E-mail on just this subject today that I wanted to share with you but your E-mail address in the Archives screen doesnt work. E-mail me if you have the time so I can send it to you, if you're interested. WW. WAcrump@aol.com.
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Wayne, me?
No worries, Wayne, it was not you, just the totality of the situation. I just needed a small soap-box for a moment.
Not sure why the e-mail address is not doing it for you, I will drop you a line!
Brad0 -
This is good news for the solar industry
for the rest...0 -
Why not lift the cap for solar thermal systems?
Why did they lift the cap for photovoltaics and not for solar thermal? Is there an organized PV lobby and none for solar thermal? Is there a lack of understanding in Congress? We should all write our representatives about this issue.
Residential Tax Credit0 -
Brad,
Like it or not, the economic divide between the haves and have nots in this country is wider than it has ever been in absolute terms, and continues to worsen. left unchecked, it is the thing of revolutions. we would all do well to remember that. Things can only get so out of whack before people get a tad ornery about it.
Your tax quotes are interesting, but ignore the fact that the people you talk about paying 40% and 60% of income taxes control, last time I checked, something like 80% to 90% of the wealth and assets in this nation. When you compare tax burden to that metric, this country's tax code is massively unfair to the lower income brackets in tax burden.
I don't think you understand what "class warfare" is. It is what happens when the poor realize they can take what they want because they are so very much more numerous than the few super elites around them, and they are desperate enough to risk their lives to take it. It is the stuff of the French and Russian revolutions.
What we have here in the USA is squabbling, but justified squabbling. The rich use their resources to help make sure they retain their wealth disproportionately to what the middle class gets to keep, because they can. Because they can, does not make it morally defensible.0 -
tenth amendment
there is a law against pork. the 10th amendment to the constitution. the constitution hardly gives the federal goverrnment power to spend money on anything. powers have to be "delegated" to the united states otherwise it's presumed they don't have that power. the phrase "united states" in the 10th amendment is referring to the federal government. dennis
www.truthattack.org
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tax law
people have inalienable rights. rights cannot lawfully be taxed.you have the right worship God the way you want. you have the right to free speech. these rights among others cannot be taxed. priviledges on the other hand can be taxed. you have a 9 to 5 job. you have to work. question: is working a right or a priviledge granted to you by government. your right to work is not taxable. the irs knows this. that's why they tell you the income tax is based on "voluntary compliance".
www.truthattack.org0 -
Taxes
Good luck with that one.0 -
Fair Tax
I noticed on the web site there is no meantion of www.fairtax.org . Any reason for that?0 -
Andrew, we didn't do our job
We failed to show that low temperature solar hot water space heating, is a much more efficient way to utilize solar thermal when compared to solar domestic hot water. Here in Massachusetts we spend about 30% of our energy dollar on electricity and about 17% on domestic hot water. Everyone says forget about solar space heating and just do solar thermal the same way we have been doing it for 30 plus years. If you combine our heating requirements of 52% of our energy dollar with domestic hot water, you end up with about 70%! Even if we only get half of our hot water and heating needs from solar, we will still get more than if we get 100% of our electricity from solar. Not only is it a bigger piece of the energy pie but the low temperature BTU'S are much easier to harvest. We know that low temperature boilers are more efficient, why is it so hard to convince people that low temperature solar is more efficient. WE have to step up and improve solar hot water systems. I'm attaching a word document explaining the benefits of low temperature solar space heating. I have posted it before without much debate or discussion. In the document I state that we can make these systems 50% more efficient, I now believe that it is much more than that, maybe 2 to 3 times more efficient. Take 10 minutes to read it and let me know if you like it, or let me know if you disagree.
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I'll discuss
Bob, without temperatures, it's hard to see how this would work out. Do you have some more data to support?
I like the idea. Is this what you have in your home?0 -
Low Temp. Solar
A recent Caleffi Idronics magazine stated that at 95 degree return water temperatures, solar collectors are 3 times more efficient, than they are at 165 degree return water temp. Hot Rod said that the SRCC website had all this info, but my computer is too slow to get it. I have two solar systems on my house, a home made flat panel connected to a low temperature tank and a 120 evac tube array connected to a higher temperature domestic tank. The low temp system starts collecting early and doesn't stop collecting all day, I use this tank for radiant heating. The evac. tube system has to wait around for the higher domestic temps and only collects a fraction of the low temp array. The higher temperature domestic tank maxes out in the early afternoon, when the domestic tank may be about 150 degrees or so, but the low temperature system collects energy all day until sunset because it only needs the collectors to be 90 to 95 degrees to harvest energy. Can someone get the info off the SRCC web site?
Thanks, Bob Gagnon
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luck won't work
enlightenment is a lot better than luck. if there isn't a law requiring you to file incme tax returns and you knew they wouldn't bother you, would you still file?
aaron russo has an enlightening video on the subject on the internet called freedom to facism. easy to find.
I would never try to talk someone into not paying incme tax because I know they confiscate property and can put you in jail eventhough I think the irs knows there is no law requiring an american citizen living and working within the 50 states to file a 1040.
truthattack.org0 -
solar
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fair tax?
a fair tax would be unconstitutional. according to the constitution article one section 2 clause 3, "direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states". the federal government can lay a direct tax only on the states, not on it's citizens. a direct tax by the federal government on it's citizens would be unconstitutional. the income tax is constitutional because it's an indirect tax on non resident aliens, not a direct tax on american citizens. it's a foreign tax.
hucklebee wanted to get rid of the income tax and replace it with the "fair tax". I like what ron paul wants to replace the income tax with; nothing.
the taxing laws in the constitution were deliberatly written to make it difficult for the federal government to get to your money. to put the government on a 1500 calorie a day diet so they wouldn't become too big and oppressive. now look at them. we need to get them back on that diet.
truthattack.org0 -
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Efficiency
Does solar thermal have a reputation for being inefficient?
I would say the efficiency of flat plate collectors at 95°F is approximately 40% better than it is at 165°F, meaning that at 165°F they are 50% efficient and at 165°F they are 70% efficient. I'm just pulling those numbers out of my head, but I think they are close. 50% still beats the 10% efficiency of photovoltaics at higher temperatures.
I have written both of my senators, my representative, my governor, and senator Harry Reid expressing why I think the cap should have been lifted for solar thermal if they are going to lift the cap on photovoltaics.0 -
Low temp solar collection
Bob, I read the details on your system with some interest. I am currently finishing up installing my own 120 tube array. I have made some heat for a day or two so I am still collecting data. Ironically, I must read the same info you do and recognize the benefits of collecting heat at low temps. A btu is a btu whether at 90 or 150 deg. My plan is very similiar to your drawing though I think I am going to install a diverting valve at the domestic preheat tank to switch at a lower temp-say 120 deg, and then switch to the larger tank. After all, you have a dhw preheat coil there which will still add to the dhw at lower temps. I would think that would allow the evac tubes to function much longer. The question is how does that effect the flat collection efficiency by raising the temps quicker? It has me thinking that there should be some "smart" energy management system developed with efficiency curves used to make the decision where to provide heat. BTW_I only have 60 of the tubes installed right now so not to over do it. How large is your DHW tank and how many gallons per day do you think you use?0 -
I like the basic concept Bob, I just don't think a 1000 gallon tank with massive amounts of copper is very feasible for most people... and I've seen copper coils like that failing in older solar systems as well, so I suspect the ongoing maintenance (long term) would fell such systems just like all those old drainback systems people gave up on when they failed.
But your concept of just adding a "heat dump emitter" in the living space is a great idea. I'm trying to noodle out a control strategy that will use the same emitter used for primary heat.. preferably a simple one... that will use the tank if it can to get up to desired setpoint, a backup if the tank can't get there, and then go back to the tank when in "satisfied but accepting dump heat" mode.
If you're willing to just let the backup get you up to setpoint (heat demand always runs backup, no heat demand activates dump), that's pretty simple, for example.
But if the tank is hot enough to get to setpoint in the first place, of course we'd want to do that..0 -
Rob
I do fully understand 'class warfare', whether used as a true taking or the oblique and undefined terms within political discourse using terms such as the "haves and have-nots", or "the filthy rich".
I reject that dialogue outright on a number of fronts. For one, the terms (including "middle class") are rarely if ever defined. The other part is, if we are a nation of laws, then everyone has to be treated equally. To gang up on the successful -or any group that matter but especially one of punishing success- does not strike me as being fair and equal treatment.
I work for a number of very wealthy people who generate a lot of jobs and geometrically expand their realms of the economy. Do I feel envious? Jealous? Covetous of their wealth and success? Not in the least.
I do not see the economy as a fixed, zero-sum pie, that if one has, the other does not.
Is the glass half empty? Or is the glass half-full?
Me? I prefer to seek a bigger glass!
It has often been said that if the wealth of the top 5 percent of wealthiest Americans were taken entirely, it would run the government for a surprisingly short time, leaving those higher-income job creators in Bermuda, see you later.
This is why when any group gets singled out, the hairs on the back of my neck (OK, my ears too well, tingle a bit.
I think we respectfully disagree and that is a function of outlook perhaps.0 -
My 1500 Gallon Tank
Helped me get through 9 days of rain, and still have hot water to take a shower. The tank is only 8' X 8' X 4' high, it only cost a couple of thousand to make it, but copper is a lot higher now. People are spending $1,000. to fill an oil tank for a months worth of heating, that solar tank seems cheap. You may have seen some coils failing but was that because of bad anti freeze in the solar loop? We have all seen thin walled tankless coils that have lasted decades. There are simple solutions to these simple problems. I'm not saying that I have all the answers, there are still things to be worked out and made less expensive. Some people tell me that pex-al-pex has worked very well for heat exchangers, or maybe a custom made tankless coil like I have in my greywater tank, or maybe an external flat plate exchanger with two pumps will be the way to go. We have to figure this stuff out collectively. I don't know every turn we are going to take heading down the solar highway, but I know the first road we have to take is the one with the sign, "Low Temperature Solar Space Heating"
Thanks for considering this, Bob Gagnon
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Enough Pork....
as we say in the Tribe..."something ain't kosher"....
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tax
Yea, well with the Fair Tax, it's just on purchases you make. At least we'd be able to collect from every person, legal, illegal and visiting. BTW, this is just for Federal tax.
Make no mistake; I don't want to pay Fed. Taxes if possible, but Fair Tax is better than what we have now. FYI, it would completely eliminate the IRS too.
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So you believe it is, in fact, fair for people who have more, to pay less?
that's where we are at brad. Last I knew, that math didn't add up.
Equal would be quite an improvement!0 -
Mike C
My primary domestic hot water tank is about 200 gallons, although my larger 1500 gallon tank has a domestic coil which pre heats my domestic about 2/3. In the winter the cold water coming in is in the 36-38 degree range. It comes out of my large tank at about 90 degrees, then only has to get topped off in the primary domestic tank. I use maybe 30 or 40 gallons of hot water a day but I recover about 30% of that heat in my grey water tank, onto my incoming cold water. My system is more complicated than the drawing I provided, to ensure the maximum amount of domestic is available, I have the evac tubes set to about 135 degrees before they kick on. It then dumps a second time into the larger tank, then back to the collector. I have a large homemade box collector that is tied onto the lower temperature delta tees on the larger tank and it harvests energy all day long. Observing how these two systems work side by side has shown my that low temp collection is a lot more efficient. For your system you are going to put a diverter valve on the domestic and heat that to about 120 degrees then divert to your heating tank? Do you have a diagram? I thought about doing mine that way.
Thanks, Bob Gagnon
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Not less, Rob
the same rate. No one said "less", at least I did not.
I do not believe in treating people differently. A flat tax would suit me fine. Exempt say twice the poverty rate, then above that, everyone pays the same percentage.
That sounds fair to me!0 -
Brad,
How can it be fair to charge a guy who make 75k the same percentage of his income as the guy who make 250k?0 -
Put another way...
How can it be fair to charge someone a higher percentage just because they are in a higher income bracket? What does "equal protection and treatment under the law" mean?
Say the person making $75K with a qualified base exemption of, say, $35K, pays a flat 15% on the remaining "taxable" $40K. That person pays $6,000.
The person making $250K ($215K taxable allowing the base $35K exemption), pays the same 15% but in dollars, that is $32,250.
So, the $250K person makes 333% of what the $75K person makes but pays 537.5% of what the $75K person pays in taxes, far more yet it is the same rate. And you want to tax this person more, why?
Now, the current tax setup would have the $75K person pay roughly the same 15% marginal tax rate but the $250K person would be paying 36% or whatever the highest bracket is now.
Somehow that seems fair?
When I hear this "tax the rich" business, I have this eerie premonition that someone might think I am rich (ha!) and worse, forget that it is my money to begin with. I do not have the audacity to assume that anyone else's money is mine to direct. Should I do so, that as easily could be done back to me.
/rant0 -
but...
There remains the fact that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. As the government spending increases, they simply can't get it out of the <$75k guys/gals without adversely affecting the nation's economy (and their chances for re-election).
I think we have reached a point where our nation has quit it's job and lived off credit cards far too long. First our nation needs it's job(s) back and credit cancelled. Then we can start paying our way (and our debt) with dollars that actually represent something. No doubt it was a fun ride for the baby boomers. Now their kids (my generation) get to pay the price in the prime of our careers. :-)
My point is this divide is more than just "haves" versus "have-nots". It is "we" versus "me". It is intensely generational. The current presidential campaign is very illustrative of that fact.
I am definitely no expert on the economy, but we have to fund one of the few truly good things our federal government is doing right now, the alternative energy tax incentives. Who should bear that burden? Those who have benefited most from times of prosperity when energy was cheap, or those who are struggling to get by now that natural gas prices are increasing 15% each year? I don't think that question should bring up any Marxist answers. All I am saying is pay it forward.0 -
Then we are in agreement. I am just saying quoting your tax numbers is a bit misleading, because it doesn't take into account the context you need to understand what it means when X percent of people pay Y percent of taxes, you also need to know how much wealth they represent in this economy. Currently, the "haves".. meaning the very top percentages of people in this country.. can dodge quite a lot of the tax burden they would normally be entitled to pay.
Your post here (flat tax with poverty exemption, with NO LOOPHOLES) I would endorse in one hot minute. Or a slightly progressive tax with a small shift towards the top I think is also reasonable and fair. Or the "fair tax", for that matter.
But the current structure is a joke.0 -
In defense of slightly progressive tax schemes,
if I make $30k/year, $3k is the difference in the quality of car I drive, health insurance I can afford (if any), food I can buy, house I can rent, or the difference between being able to save for a rainy day or not.
In short, it's real money. It makes a real difference in a persons' life.
If I make $300k/year, $30k/year makes no appreciable difference on my standard of living.
While it may not be rigidly, mathematically fair, it is absolutely fair from any standpoint that values people over money to ask those who succeed in our system to support it more heavily than those who do not.
how much more heavily we could debate forever, and again as I noted a true flat tax without loopholes would still be a big improvement. But progressive taxes are MORALLY fair, far moreso than allowing the numbers to dictate alone.
IMHO, of course.0 -
A-men Brother!
It is hard to discuss deep policy matters in a vacuum so for brevity, some things are left as "understood", meaning, "open to mis-understanding".
I go back and forth between "flat tax" (arguing that income tax itself, especially progressive is not constitutional by the originators), and the so-called "smart tax" or national sales tax. That last one would reign in undocumented dollars but also would need an iron-clad "no income tax" guarantee. Otherwise it becomes an additional tax, not "instead of".
I cannot trust any politician, especially when they want to make me an unwilling investor to insure their downside risk, but no benefit for any upward trends.
Where are my stock certificates? Exactly.0
This discussion has been closed.
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