pipe

Brad White_200

Well, that bit of bi-annual business says something. The apparent lack of steam is not an absolute, meaning that it has to be humid outside.

Remember that even in winter a normal boiler will have some "steam" (condensed water vapor out of the combustion process). When it is a steam leak, the vapor is whiter.

If it currently is dry outside and not all that cold, the steam (if any, we have not nailed that down yet!) could be evaporating not condensing in air.

Have you kept note of your make-up water requirements? Any automatic feeder is not helpful unless it has a counter on it. No, not granite or Silestone, but a meter. :)

That alone will tell especially if it increases over time and over a season with more firing. Just another way to find out one way or the other.

That flood test may be next on your list. I have seen dye tests (not for this type of leak but for others), which someone may comment upon.

Gas or Oil?

If I knew that....

mike jones_3

slow venting of main gorton # 2 vents

A few feet of our 3 inch steam mains are uninsulated in a cold cellar with soffits built around them. The rest of the mains and most risers 2 inch are insulated. Is it critical to insulate every inch of main? Even if we have to bust up the soffits to get at them?

We are wondering if this could be contributing to our slow venting of the main gorton # 2 vents which were replace last year.

Brad White_200

Bare Pipe

3-inch steam pipe will lose about 310 BTUH per LF so your total if three feet (a few, however defined) loses about one pound of steam capacity per hour. Not a huge deal unless the sudden collapse makes it bang. If you can insulate it, do so. Maybe blow in some fiberglass to fill the soffit. But to tear it out for three feet? Judgment call.

Define "slow" though. I do not see that loss contributing to venting slowly. It might make the Gorton "pant" a bit as the bare pipe collapses steam into a minor vacuum.

Did the venting ever work faster? Is the vent properly installed back from the end of the main?

mike jones_3

slow main vents

Both mains take well over 5 minutes to get hot past the main vents on 30 foot runs to the main vents. We never tested the speeds until we started getting wet steam so we cant say if they ever vented faster. The vents are properly installed after the ends of the mains.

Brad White_201

Let's Look at Something Else

You mentioned Wet Steam. Can you post a photo of your near-boiler piping?

And while you are at it, the installation of that Gorton #2?

What is your operating pressure?

Five minutes for thirty feet of 3-inch mains is a tad slow. I would think a minute or 1:30:00 tops but have not verified that against the Gorton rate, just a gut check. About 1.5 cubic feet of air is what you need to vent over the time you seek.

For the parts that ARE insulated, how thick is that by the way?

Mike D_9

Im very curious about this subject

I have 8ft 2in main with 2 Gorton # 1's , 1/2 insulation and it takes 7mins to heat to the vents.

Brad White_201

Is

the boiler even on?

Stewy_2

So your saying there is room for improvement

I have some TSP in the boiler right now because cold skimming didn't seem to put a dent in improving the warm up time and the waterline still surges quite a bit. After this though, I'm not sure whats next.

Brad White_200

Yup

Sorry for the short and smart-@** answer, I was rushing out the door this morning...

Can you post a photo of your near-boiler piping? Are the vents properly installed? (Held back at least a foot to 15" from the end of the main and held above the main by at least a few inches?)

Is there a Hartford Loop or is steam allowed into the returns? That might hold back outflowing steam and hence air ahead of it. Too many variables to seek right now, but consider this:

Your 8 feet of 2-inch pipe holds about 0.19 cubic feet of air. A single Gorton #1 should vent that in well under a minute IIRC, at low pressure. Two would be twice as fast. The insulation is a little lacking but less of a factor in that you have it at all.

Stewy_2

No problem I appecitate the help

couldn't imagine how this system would run if my boiler moved steam 4x faster. The vents are 12 1/2" off the end of the main. This main in question (feeds 3 rads)doesn't use a condensate return instead its pitched pretty steep. Also when I skim the boiler according to manufactures instructions, the water out the skim tap is hot but the water that comes out the drain is cold and slowly warm up as the boiler empties, is that right?

Brad White_200

Is this

a counter-flow system?

SG1L3412.jpg shows the venting tree and no end of main drop so I assume the condensate goes backwards, against flow, to the boiler. Otherwise I am not clear on where that (copper) return comes from.

Also, the branch take-offs in that vent photo are coming off the sides of the pipe.

They ideally should come off the top or best of all, 45 degrees above horizontal. What I see there is that the pipe could well be filled with water to the invert (inside bottom) of the lowest outflowing branch.

That might well be an issue, possibly forcing water up into the vent tree after dead-heading at that plugged end. Just an observation.

At least you have a dropped header though.

Stewy_2

the other main has a return

and i think this one use to judging by the stubbed copper on the Hartford loop. Any suggestion on how to add a return giving the low head room and the is in a high traffic area?

Brad White_200

Oops double post NM

Brad White_200

The end return will

only work if the main leading to it pitches downward towards it.

You may need to re-pitch that leg. While you are at it, you can correct the take-offs and make it all right.

mike jones_2

mike jones_2

Steamhead (in transit)

How old

is your boiler? I notice rust stains on your smoke pipe. Are you perhaps sending steam up your chimney?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Stewy_2

1989 WC

I actually think the stain is the hard rains that occasionally coming down but how would I check

Brad White_201

Gordo makes a very good point

If you have an above waterline leak, there goes your biggest vent of all.

Stewy_2

Could that be why after an hour the boiler builds no pressure

I've got it set @ .5 psi and let it run for over an hour the other day trying to satisfy the thermostat (it was 65 out) and it never cycled off or registered pressure. If that it determind the problem, Whats the fix action,a new boiler?

Brad White_200

Yup

That lack of pressure is a calling card of the worst kind. To confirm, fill your boiler to above the crown sheet but not too far up into the system. Just enough to flood the steam chamber and see if water flows into the combustion chamber.

Short of that, look at your chimney when it is firing.

We already have a pope so steam coming out means that your boiler may go the way of the last one. Served well for years, immensely popular and warm, maybe even spoke several languages?

It may well be time. Go find a good pro.

Stewy_2

I know that my chamber is always damp

have to replace the chamber insulation in it every other year it seems cause it breaks down due to being wet (thought it had to do with the basement conditions), but I don't notice steam coming out of the chimney. So my next question, natural gas or oil?

mike jones_2

Wet Steam

Sorry, i had to borrow a digital cam to get the 2 pics requested. also inlcuded what i beleive is the Hartford Loop? by the return line.

The main vent pic is an old one we dug up before we added the Gorton vent and closed up a soffit. looks like more pipes only partially insulated, although the majority of the mains and risers are insulated.

Meanwhile, we are at 1 psi. Pipes only have 1/2 thick fiberglass tube 3ft. strips. The branches 1 1/4 inch pipe from the risers to each radiator are uninsulated, and they are underneath very cold floors in a poorly insulated brick building.

i hope this data is helpful. Thanks again and thanks to all those continuing the interesting posts below.

Stewy_2

Can a pro come in and tell

by looking at something what Im up against? If so, could you recommend one for my area - NH? Maybe if I could find an experienced exprienced steamer, winter life could be a bit warmer and cheaper

mike jones_2

wet steam

just wanted to make sure you saw the - find the pro - link on this site to see what pros are near you

Stewy_2

Nope but thank you Ill check it out

V8toilet

I looks to me like you have a counterflow steam system. This means that the condensate flows against the flow of steam back to the boiler. In those photo's it looked to me like your mains just before they get to the boiler were not dripped and if not than the condensate would flow right into that header chilling the steam coming out of it. The mains in a counterflow system have to be dripped at the boiler right after the header where the main begins so that condensate from the system doesn't enter the header.