More information on the Viessmann recall (Dan H.)

Unknown

I can't "recall" any that I have had to deal with. :)

I am aware of the Carrier condensing furnace debacle but have not come across any myself.

Warrantee repairs yes. Oh, speaking of warrantee repairs, there's one, Mrs "A". Bryant 17 SEER condenser less than a year old. Pops the condenser fan motor. Probably lightning, no other apparent cause, lots of heavy lightning in the area over the preceding days. Mrs "A" immediately decides, because there was an extra packet of screws leftover from install, that someone must have stripped her unit for parts at the warehouse and replaced them later. No amount of talking could convince her otherwise, she wanted a new unit. She completely poo pooed the lightning idea. I basically had to tell her, "THat ain't happening." Do I want to tell a customer like Mrs "A" that her boiler has a recall on a factory defect that could cause a fire? Noooo thanks, I guarantee she's the one who'd be wanting me to take that one out and install a different brand. I'd be in for some REAL talking then. LOL...

Bryant/Carrier only covers the first 30 days on labor so I ate everything but the motor on that one. They even charged me freight on the motor. So there's at least $250 right there out of my pocket when you figure the time spent as well. I'm still fighting with them over 4 hours labor on a compressor warrantee job I did. That job cost me ~$400 or so in labor and materials. The compressor had only been running 3 days but the unit had been purchased a year earlier and never installed. Even though the policy is 30 days from date of START UP they are refusing to pay because it has an older serial number.

DanHolohan

Full info:

Viessmann has set up a toll-free 24/7 information line: (888) 414-9157

There is also additional information available on the viessmann website www.viessmann-us.com for the U.S.

www.viessmann.ca for Canada.

On the start page there is a button leading to FAQ.

Inquiries may also be sent to o-ring@viessmann.com

Please find attached the letter Viessmann is including in the O-ring Exchange Kits, which may answer some of the questions that have come up.

Unknown

Maybe,,,

to try and answer your question in the other thread a bit, a lot of guys are not too happy about having to contact their customers with this to begin with. Then when I read V will provide only $45 towards labor I know this is a pittance in most cases when you consider the time to contact, make the appointment, the travel to and from, which could be extensive in some cases, plus the actual repair. So every guy who put one of these in will most likely take a $ bite on this through no fault of their own. I haven't sold any but I know I'd be a little ticked off myself if I had. Just my $0.02 of course.

DanHolohan

A business question:

Seeing as recalls are a way of life, and we know that no manufacturer is exempt, doesn't it make sense when figuring the cost of doing business, to allow a bit extra in each sale for responding to recalls in general?

Brian R

Home Owner comment here

If I were in your business, and had installed ANY Viessmann boilers, I'd use this as a positive, not as the previous comment about how much the contractor will LOOSE in order to handle this. Take the need to contact the customer over this issue, and use it as a sales incentive. Tell the home owner about the issue at hand, AND offer them your Tune Up special, and thus BOOST your business, and a way to show your customers that you are concerned for them.

Unknown

Normally I'd say yes but,,,

speaking for my area it's been pretty cut throat out here last couple years and we're figuring things tight to stay competitive, or I know I am anyways, I can't speak for everybody. I know I've seen some unbelievably low "How can they stay in business?" numbers going on for at least two years now. It makes it tough to justify putting say $200-$300 on top of the price to cover such mishaps when it might cost you the job in the end. So you take a gamble. Now as for the V-200, which as you have seen costs a pretty penny wholesale, they're not leaving you a whole lot of room to make some money for yourself and stay competetive and THEN they expect you to take a portion of the bite on a factory defect after the fact? I can see a guy who only put one or two of these in not being hurt too bad but the guys who've put in a bunch of them? That's a major hit. I guess it might boil down to that for the kind of money they want for the thing we should be able to expect better? $45 allowance to fix their problem? It's like, "You're kidding,,, right?"

DanHolohan

That's what I was thinking.

I would always welcome the opportunity to get back into the home of an existing customer. Thanks.

wrenchwench

Brian,

I need a few more customers like you.
Here's how I see that conversation going:
Contractor:
"Sir your boiler may be leaking gas into your basement which poses a fire/explosion hazard. I realize that when I sold this job I probably spent two hours telling you why this is the best heating system you can buy, and an equal amount of time explaining why all others are inferior, and I also charged you a lot more $ for it.

Homeowner:
You did, and I am grateful for that.

Contractor:
I'll swing by sometime between now and next July to fix it. Do you mind leaving the place unlocked for me?

Homeowner:
No. Recalls are so positive.

Contractor:
I'm no knucklehead.

Unknown

What if,,,

the customer decides they're not very happy about all this? Still want to go to their house?

Unknown

When I say,

"Expect better" I mean, "Oops, our bad, let us know what your entire cost outlay was and we'll reimburse you the full amount." Not "Here's $45, make it work."

DanHolohan

You bet I do.

We've all see what happens when an unhappy customer shows up here instead. If my customer is unhappy, I want to make them happy so that they'll tell others about my fine service. If I ignore them, they're going to tell as many people as possible that I'm a bad guy.

wrenchwench

pricing buffer

This is a smart idea, and great in theory, but on nearly every job some trunk-slammer throws a low-ball qoute in the mix that my quote is compared to. My price is already higher than his because I do it right. I have to pay for a new truck, tools, insurance etc, but I fear loosing the job when I have to explain - or "sell" the additional price differnce to cover fixing a recall.
Not to blow my own horn, but I sell value on my jobs, and substantiate the price difference as best I can every time. But homoewners don't understand every little difference in materials and methods, and when the low guys promises "It will work fine without all that extra stuff." they kick back pretty hard on price.
At the end of the day should we really have to factor in saftey recalls on every job? Is that realistic?
Maybe I'm headed down the wrong path here. I bought Sprinters to increase my fuel mileage, and give my business a more modern appearance. Everyone claims they are great. These things are incredibly expensive to maintain. I have to scramble that much harder every month to cover the maintenance my vans. adding a couple of hundred bucks to every job is not an easy thing to get away with in this economy.
I think I need to go back to driving simple reliable E-250 vans, and installing Series 2 boilers.

Unknown

Oh,

I'd never ignore the situation but I'd rather not have an unhappy customer to start with. Sometimes they can be appeased, sometimes they can not. I've dealt with a few unhappy people in my day. Not so much since I began working for myself and calling the shots though. I was just talking to a sheetmetal guy about this today as a matter of fact. His job is to run around and put out "fires" other people start. Nobody is ever happy by the time he gets to them. I can't post the exact words he used to describe his dismay with the situation, the screen would implode.

DanHolohan

Would it really require

a couple of hundred bucks added on to every job? How many recalls do you have to respond to in a given year?

don_185

I'm surpise

I'm surpise to hear that no one has mention a parts/labor warranty.It should be offer on all equipment.

I also believe the people that make the equipment need to realize that we dont have shop prices.The shop is being brought to the customer home.

Forty five dollars is a insult to any professional and in any field.

Unknown

To answer your question though,

We would expect our collective profit from all jobs to offset the mishaps we encounter but these days, with everything tight like I said, that's not so much the case any more. Things like this hurt when the best you can do is just keep your head above water.

Dobber

Call Backs

I've never had a recall issue. I do allow for one call back. I'm not a V guy but I can imagine their frustration. I have been the high quote due to the fact that I offered a better quality system overall and was able to convince the customer of those benefits. I'm sure the V guys have done the same with just the Vito. My question is what if the customer wants the boiler removed? There are people out there that do not want a flame or gas in their house.

Good Luck
Dobber

Steve Thompson (ST)

View from a Manufacturer

I’ve been watching from a “birds eye view” on this mfg defect/recall thing for quite a while. 34 years in this industry I’ve seen casting sand in cast boiler heat exchangers, pre ignition (some call it explosions) with pulse combustion products, strange things happening with Fireye controls, massive Honeywell gas valve recalls, bad pump electronics, sticking rotor issues, bad batches of mechanical seals, wrong RPM motors on pumps – you name it. I hate to say it but WILO will probably have an issue or two down the road – I would be a fool and pretty arrogant if I thought otherwise (yes, I know Mr Murphy well).

I have always thought a labor inclusive warranty in the pump business would be a good idea – you installers covering labor for manufacturer’s defects ain’t fare but labor rate based on what? Who’s rates? Travel time in Manhattan is waaay different than Fargo. It’s not an easy answer. And besides as we all know nothing is free in this world (I include labor and have to raise my price and loose business cause I am too expensive doesn’t add up). Every manufacturer has a “customer accommodation account” to help assist the above and beyond stuff. Give Viessmann a chance – as with any good manufacturer they will come good. Can we manufacture 100% bulletproof products? Almost impossible due to the wide variations of site conditions and installers out there - not too mention they would be waaay expensive.

No one wins in a mfg defect – as one of “the dead men” told me long ago “show me a someone that doesn’t make mistakes and I’ll show you a guy that is not working – just make small ones”. That rule applies to manufacturers as well - of course a defective O Ring causing a gas leak isn't small but I hope you get my drift.

My $0.02 worth…

Unknown

Another quote,,,

some rooftop philosophy if you will, I'm not sure if the guy is dead yet though.

"In this business it's the details that'll kill you."

So very true in this instance!

As far as rates, whatever it takes. The contractor/installer would simply bill the mfg just like any other customer. I think establishing the guidelines prior to any sales would help alleviate any price gouging that might occur. Like you'll pay two hours travel max for example and rates are such and such amount per hour and it shouldn't take more than x amount of time to do this particular job. Sure $45 ain't bad for something that really only takes ten minutes, but if it takes me 1.5 hours round trip paying a guy and paying for fuel, wear and tear etc etc $45 isn't much at all. Not to mention the income lost that I SHOULD be making from this man elsewhere. This parts only warantee stuff is a real thorn in my side, there should be some fair and equitable labor compensation to go right along with the life of the warrantee on the part and noone will ever convince me to believe otherwise. If I screw something up on my end, I go in there and I fix it for free and if I think it's my fault becasue I was stupid that day it'll be fixed for free regardless of how long ago it was I did the job. THAT goes a long way with customers. IMHO a concientious mfg that truly supports it's customers would do the same although I can understand putting time limits on things.

Steve Thompson (ST)

Another Quote

MPF - Points well taken.

As a mfg I rarely see the wrath of a PO'd homeowner and am paid monthly so, hey - a little "free" labor what's the big deal right? If my income was based on billable hours I would likely sing a different tune.

It's illegal (colabration)but if all mfg got together and slightly raised their price so we all could help cover labour it would be a great thing - But I don't look good in stripes :-)

34 years of experience and I am still listening and learning (and totally enjoying this industry, and it's daily challanges). Thanks for the other view...

JackR

Normally I would agree

with everything you said. I think Viessmann should feel the pain of being unjustly persicuted for a while, both Viessmann and their staunch vocal supporters have sat in the ivory tower and made an appoint to exploit every one else who may have had a product problem and call them " Inferior " or " Incompetent " I think they should be taken on the carpet for while and feel some heat.

I'm sure Wilo will have a product problem one of these days and it will be dealt with without fanfare, from what I have seen of Wilo they are a good outfit who doesn't prop themselves up on an Alter so we the small insignificant contractors can bow to them.

Paul Pollets

Viessmann Bashing, et al

Having installed many of the Vitodens 200, and it being the prime boiler we sell, I feel qualified to comment. I've been a "Partner" with Viessmann for over 15 years. Both the business and technical relationship with the company has been excellent and have learned much about advanced combustion, control (and piping) strategies from their training courses. In my opinion, there is no equal. I've installed numerous other boiler products, and I get it. I'm concerned with the posts from those who have never installed the product, yet care to throw a spear. It doesn't say very much for enlightenment, nor the ability to share solutions for dealing with recalls. I'd guess this site has more homeowners than boiler pros commenting, but that's an assumption since few post their business names.

I see the O-ring failure as a minor deal. I know of no other company that would put all of the tech info up on a website quickly and make a web video on how to do the repair? No one responds as fast as Viessmann in the industry. The O-ring notice will get us back in the homes of those customers who have been reluctant to do the required boiler cleaning. I'm not impressed by the $45. rebate... some of our clients are 120 miles and a ferry ride away. But here's more in this world to fuss and fret about. This is hardly a debacle.

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Plumdog_2

Kind of odd really

The high end mod-con maker will pay $45 labor for the repair; but (as I "recall") the bargain mod-con (Trinity) was paying $65 dollars for thier recall repair. I say get over it.

Unknown

Not a problem,,,

it's always nice to be able to vent a bit.

I really do this too. ~ 3 years ago I installed a condensing furnace. I didn't put enough pitch in the exhaust vent so it liked to drip ever so slightly and make a little ice mound on the driveway below. I told the guy a few times that I'd fix it but he said no, don't worry about it. So the other day I was there and he mentioned it again and I said, "You now, I told you I'd fix it but you never let me. This time I'm going to take care of it!" and so I did. Now I'm happy because I hate when I screw up and have to live with it and he's happy because now the little ice mound is no more.

Supply House Rick

Paul you were OVERCHARGED

Paul,

The question isn't whether or not the big V make a good boiler or not:

Sold by: Plumbing and heating contractors nationwide from January 2002 through December 2007 for between $4,000 and $7,500.

The issue is some people paid 4k and others paid 7.5k, which means wholesale paid some where in the 2.5-3k range

Summary:

a) Contractors were ripped off BIG TIME on price

b) Is made in Canada and actually cost less than a GB142 or a Prestige on the open market, LESS V-Heads!

c) Viessmann and wholesalers have been LYING to you for all these years about price and now quality

I can't stress the price issue enough, you were tremendously overcharged because of the "perception is reality" rule. If we tell you it's better and cost more you will believe it. It's a big lie and the V-Heads arrogance here for years is legendary, you have been defeated on the field of battle. You paid premium price for average priced product. Please re-read this if you must. Price not quality is where you were duped by Viessmann.

* YOU WERE RIPPED OFF BY VIESSMANN AND YOUR WHOLESALER *

Frankenstein

Brad White_201

You missed the memo

the price difference largely reflects the range of Vitodens 200's from the smallest to the largest.

Paul Pollets

Franz...

First, I don't pay list price. I have a good multiplier and discount my bills. 2nd, I'm well aware what the product costs, and I haven't been lied to. I'm even aware what the dealer/wholesale costs are. Markups are similar to every other line. Since you're so concerned about price, why mention Viessmann? You obviously can't afford it, so you prefer to bash. Purchase a product that's "affordable", and stay within your comfort zone. Do you complain at the wine store that a bottle of '97 Barolo costs more than 2 Buck Chuck?


3rd, quality has not been compromised. That's your impression, not mine. I never believe a "glossy brochure" and if I was defeated on the "field of battle", thanks for the heads up.

Have you been to Germany, Franz? Have you visited any German foundry or assembly plant? Have you ever attended ISH? Are you even a contractor? Do you complain about the price of Tekmar controls? I'd rather doubt all of the above.

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DanHolohan

Paul,

Franz has left the building. I had enough.

Paul Pollets

Thanks...

so have I.

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Derheatmeister

Small Hickup!.But resposible possive reaction!!

I am with Paul on this one...
I have been Installing boilers for about 30 years now and Viessmann is light years ahead in the technology and support!

I seen all kinds of designs come and go,Even Modcon boilers operating on Set point not outdoor reset.!Why even bother ???

I am scheduled to do my Heart Inspections on all these boilers anyhow!! So what will in take to change an simple little O-Ring?. This is one of the tasks anyway...i remove the inlet to see if the Screen in Clogged!

By the way:I have not found a leaker yet!!!

As per the overcharge comment:You get what you pay for!!!
It's still the best boiler in my book!!!

Hoch lebe Viessmann!!!!!!

Thanks, Richard Graves from Heatmeister

Leo G_101

Steve

here we have a law that all our construction companies have to pay into a new home/major reno warranty programme. Maybe look into a voluntary manufactures version of this, I don't think that would be illegal.

Leo G

Michael_6

You change the O ring when you go to service the boiler, No call to the homeowner other than the call to set up yearly service, and it takes minutes. In the case of customers that you did a second home out of your service range call the qualified service contractor that you left them with.

scott markle_2

Vito 200 is German made. Given the problems with our currency my biggest concern with Viessmann is the future economic viability of european imports.

Derheatmeister

Genau or exactly

Rick_85

Paul

Did you pay $4000? doubt it

tom_49

recall/callbacks

1 thing I do is add 1.5% to jobs for callbacks and/or recalls ( thats $150.00 on a $10,000.00 job). Really not much money in the scope of things, and I dont think a deal breaker.

If we have to go back, which does happen, its not real painful and we get happy customers.

Its not "if" you have problems ( because you will ), its how you deal with them.

Tom