Dan Hologan says: \"Insulate Pipes!\" But.. which ones?

ScottMP

When working on old homes you'll find the pipe in the walls in heated areas are insulated also.

The "theory" was to insulate as much as possible and allow the heat to transfer at the radiator. The condesate lines would be insulated aslo, on the better systems.

I know this because I have worked on these homes for twenty five years now.

Scott

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sreja

Dan Hologan says: \"Insulate Pipes!\" But.. which ones?

I've been through Dan's books and he stresses the importance of insulation.

We are receiving quotes from heating contractors to install thermostatic valves and replace traps and do other work that would lower our heating costs.

One thing that has remained a real confusion regard insulation.

The boiler room pipes are not insulated.

Two of the contractors (the more knowledgeable ones i might add) seem quite certain that insulating the boiler pipes in the boiler room would yield very little gain.

This confuses me as Dan puts such an emphasis on insulation.

What pipes *should* we spend the money to insulate? Are we talking about the pips from the floor to the inlet valve on the radiators? Exposed pipes in the building outside the boiler room?

Thank you for any advice!

Hitzkup

Insulate everything

In order to deliver dry steam to the distribution piping, the boiler room pipng "must " be insulated.

besides that, any pipe that's not meant to be a radiator should be insulated.

klaus

Insulate

Start with your steam mains. Then move on th the supply runs to the individual radiators. Last priority would be the returns.

Insulation helps to get the Btu's to the desired location, the radiators, without being lost along the way. By doing this your efficiency increases. The pipe becomes a radiator if not insulated. No sense in turning the boiler room into a sauna unless you hang out there a lot and enjoy that sort of thing!

Brad White_198

Returns

While less of a priority, insulating the returns is something to get done eventually, say within a year of insulating the steam mains.

Aside from unwanted radiation effect, keeping the condensate as hot as possible minimizes carbon dioxide absorption from the air.

Carbon dioxide dissolved in water forms carbonic acid which eats pipes over time, especially the bottom where the condensate flows. Most commercial/institutional specifications these days and in years past used Schedule 80 (heavy-weight wall thickness) to account for this erosion regardless.

[Deleted User]

But.....

Real question from consumer... "How much insulation can I leave off of my steam mains and still heat my basement?"

Why is it I always get the goofy questions?

My solution was to keep three pieces available for removal. If your kind of cool, remove 1, semi cool 2, real cool,all three. If too hot, put all three back on etc...

ME

Bruce M_2

It would be Nice if You Had the Correct name.

Dan's last name is HOLOHAN. He has had that name for quite a while and it would be nice to use the correct name. There might be another guy named Dan Hologan and he might not be a nice guy so please be more accurate.

Dan Foley

Hohlohan

Take it easy, Bruce. G is next to H on the keyboard - probably just a typo. -DF

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ScottMP

from a contractor

You should insulate all exposed piping on a steam system. Starting at piping at the boiler, the mains and the risers in the basement. Insulating the piping in the room going to the radiators is not necessary.

Returns, as Brad stated, are just as important for an efficient system.

I hate to second guess anyone but someone telling you that piping near the boiler (where it is its hottest) is not necessary, don't sound that knowledgeable.

Scott


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Bruce M_2

You Got it Wrong Also

Why should I take it easy? You spelled his name wrong also. H O L O H A N. Holohan.

John Starcher_4

Geez, Bruce!

Bad day?

Typos occur here every day! People are working for a living, and responding or posting here when they can. Usually in a hurry, I think. It's a given that you're gonna have some mis-spellings.

I think there are more important things to direct your energy towards, don't you?

klaus

Hey Bruce,

Are you volunteering to be a spell checker for this site? If so I think you'll have your work cut out for you!!!

Seriously, I'm sure no harm was intended by these two gentlemen.

Bruce M_2

Good Day

I always have a good day. Do you know that if you use the Firefox browser to post here it will underline in red every misspelled word. With names and places and words it doesn't recognize you can add it to the dictionary. You can read about and download Firefox for free here:

http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/

Dan Foley

Bruce

Hey Bruce, surely you have more pressing issues to occupy your time than worrying about my typing skills (or lack thereof). Switch to the decaf. -DF

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John Starcher_4

I'm glad....

..that you're having a good day, Bruce.

Thanks for the tip on Firefox. I've been using the new Chrome browser from Google, and it has a spell checker also. Doesn't appear to be a way to add words to the dictionary, at least yet.

Bruce_26

Coffee

Hey Dan, I never drink coffee. Could you imagine if I did?

scott markle_2

macintosh osx has the same spell check integrated across all applications, couldn't live without it.

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Steam pipe insulation

In graduate school (Mech E) I had this prof who said several times, "and that's why you don't insulate steam pipes".

He was referring to the fact that more heat is actually lost to ambient air because the new larger OD of the pipe and insulation assembly was much larger than the original pipe diameter, therefore the heat loss area was larger. This larger area, the logic went, had more of an effect on heat loss than the R value of the insulation. For low insulation R values, this is true.

Has anyone else heard this old myth?

ScottMP

NEVER !

I can NOT impagine anyone saying that ??

Scott

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Hitzkup

Back then they insulated pipes with aluminum foil?

Bruce M_2

Insulation

Most older insulation at the time was asbestos. The theory is to only insulate pipes in unheated areas.

Bruce M_2

Not The Period I Was Referring To

I was speaking about the 20's and 30's when oil was .05 a gallon. A time of little insulation, drafty windows, oversize boilers and no incentive to conserve resources.

Brad White_198

5 cents a gallon

(if that indeed is what it was), was not necessarily cheap. But then, in the 1920's and 30's, coal was the fuel of choice for most. Oil, if that was low, was rarely used until the late 1930's and more so into the 1940's, post-war.

Coal was not cheap, neither was bread or other staples, especially compared to the incomes of the day- they had to work more hours for any item compared to today. That to me is the real indicator of overall value pricing.

When $15 a week was a fair wage and "$30 every Thursday" was a hallmark of middle-class, coal went for a wide range between $1.50 and $4.00 or more per ton. If I recall correctly, gasoline went for at least a quarter per gallon, maybe 30 cents, my uncle once related. (He had to buy it by the can for the Model A Ford pickup to deliver milk from the family dairy farm, is how he knew.) That was easily a day's pay for him when he was 14, legal working age.

I do not think that a concept of cheap fuel made for a culture of reckless abandon.

Rather, the house envelopes were as good as could be made, with back-plastering, building felts, corn-cobs and sawdust insulation for the resourceful. These same old houses, unimproved for 70 years, 100 years or more, now would be draftier due to settlement and just plain age. We judge the way of life in years past at our peril for accuracy.

My $0.02

ScottMP

Bruce

That’s exactly the period I was referring to!

Those of us who work in these homes know that asbestos insulation was commonly used in the 20's and 30's as pipe insulation. For steam it was in the basement and in the walls as the old timers Knew how necessary it was for a proper steam system to operate.

As I said Bruce, twenty five years of running my own business and five years before that as an apprentice has given me some experience with old homes.

Scott


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sreja

Thanks for the great suggestions everyone.. It sounds like the consensus is that we should have insulation put on the boiler room pipes, but that the idea of not putting insulation in the hot boiler room is not completely insane (since at least a couple of people here have also heard about a policy of not insulating the boiler room pipes).

Dan I'm sorry I got your name wrong -- your books were incredibly helpful and educational (to confess, i found myself reading even the sections that had no relevance for me just because the writing was so interesting; anyone who doesn't have Dan's books should consider getting them -- really great [except for the "pocketfull of steam problems" which i didn't find up to par]).

Larry Weingarten

My spell checker...

... tells me that Dan Holohan is actually Dan Hologram or Dan Hooligan. I've wondered if there may have been a little Hooligan in him during his youth, but I'd never imagined Dan as a Hologram... Digital Dan!

Sorry, but it's Friday ;~)

Yours, Larry (friend of Dan)