Advice Needed: Building-wide Two-pipe Raditaor Upgrades

sreja

Ok on further examination.. I guess the radiators do in fact have traps.. they look something like this:
http://www.control-specialties.com/products/details~pid~1490.asp

I think i was confusing them with "vents" and expecting something where steam could escape.

My mistake!

So i guess really my only question left is just what might be a reasonable price to expect to have 100 radiators upgraded with thermostatic traps and actuators.

Oh and if you'll permit me another question:

We recently replaced the boiler in the building, but the old control system remains, which is probably 50+ years old. It uses an outside temperature sensor which we have one knob to control how that's reacted to. Right now it's set on its lowest setting which should kick in only when its the coldest outside but it still seems to kick in too much.

And then we have a clock which can force the boiler off during certain hours of the day (usually overnight); normally this is set to turn the boiler off from midnight to 5am or so.

Would it be smart (economically speaking) for us to upgrade the control system? What would be a smart thing for us to do in this respect? There are 14 units in the building and money is tight but we are trying to cut down in energy costs. I read about anticipators and night setbacks, but then read that setbacks are not recommended by some people. If so then the fact that we are shutting off the boiler from 12 midnight to 5am sounds like a bad idea.

sreja

Advice Needed: Building-wide Two-pipe Raditaor Upgrades

Hi Everyone,

First of all -- thank you for this site. I've ordered and read all 3 of the steam heating books from the site and they have been incredibly useful.

Now my request for advice.

We are trying to reduce costs in our condo by upgrading the radiators.

It's a two-pipe system with a newly replaced boiler. There are about 100 radiators in the building, and the building was built in the 1930s.

The radiators all have manual valves and (and here is where i get confused), they dont seem to have any traps.

The quote we have is to replace the valves with thermostatic actuators and to replace the traps which i understand have a lifespan of only 5-7 years.

But my confusion is that it doesn't seem like the radiators have traps on them currently. So my main question is: do we need traps? Will it save money to have them installed? Or is it not appropriate for traps to be installed? Or am i wrong that we don't have traps somehow?

My second question is, can someone give me just a ballpark range for what we should be looking to pay to have 100 radiators upgraded from their original valves to new thermostatic valves+actuators, and traps installed (if that is appropriate?). We are in a medium sized city. I know it's not possible to give me an accurate quote im just trying to get a ballpark number if we're talking about $200 per radiator or $500 a radiator, etc.

Thank you very much in advance!

-sreja

klaus

The traps

It your traps are the ones in the picture those are easily rebuidable. The top portion unscrews and there is an insert in there that's replaceable. That should be much cheaper than replacing the trap. Is that what was offered in your price? Many of these type of traps can last 20 - 30 years and then be rebuilt. Do you need all of yours rebuilt? Have you had them checked with the steam on?

Cost's can vary widely from lacation to location and is something not generally discussed on this site. More importantly, did you get a good "feel" for your contractor that gave you the quote? Unfortunately in this business so many times the bottom dollar rules when decisions are made to have HVAC work done. You're trying to purchase comfort and long term economy of your system for all the residents. That may not come with the lowest bidder.

Good luck, Rich

sreja

Thanks for your reply Rich.

I've actually met and talked to the contractor we are considering about building issues and he has seemed friendly and knowledgeable. I know his quote is not going to be the lowest bid but if it's within reason I'd prefer to hire him all things being equal.

The picture i gave is only an approximation of our traps. No one has any idea how old the traps and when they were replaced or rebuilt.. They are all painted over and look like they could be as old as the radiators which would make them many decades old. Our thinking is that since it's been so long since anyone has done any work on these radiators that maybe if we are going to have them serviced and thermostatic valves+actuators installed we might as well get all new traps at the same time that are easily rebuildable in the future.

The price we were quoted was that it would be about $435 per radiator. This is calculated as $315 per radiator for supplies (inlet valve, steam trap, thermostatic actuator, sealents), and $120 for labor. This is for doing 100 radiators. It seems to me that the supplies cost quotes is awfully high, even if half the radiators are to be updated with the thermostatic actuators with remote sensor+adjustment.

Unknown

Traps and vent valves on radiators?

If the the steam supply and radiator discharge are on the bottom of the radiator steam traps were not neede.

That system would be a two pipe air vent system and shuld operate at less than one pond of steam pressure.

If steam traps were put on that system remove the traps and operate the system to acertain if you have problems.

Two pipe steam systems using steam traps should not have vent valves installed anywhere in the system except at a point near the boiler room and that would be a master vent valve. The exception to that is whe a condensate receiver used then a master vent valve is not needed.

jake