Great REX in Schaumberg Ill... (ME)

Supply House Rick

Take it easy there big fella, you just wrote more about in the last five minutes than we have. You take a set of plans, sit in front of a computer, use some fancy pancy software, type in room sizes and submit a estimate to homeowner that cuts the contractor out of any shot they had at a material mark-up.

That's not the real world. We are the front line, we go into a customer's home hoping to build a life-long relationship with them. Not just a one shot deal. We see the look on their faces when they ask us to provide an energy efficient system WHILE saving them money. Yes, that $20-30 is important.


Franz

[Deleted User]

It was great seeing everyone...

THe crowds were not overwhelming, and the seminars were nothing short of fantastic. It was great being able to put a face to the writings of all my new/old Wallie friends.

Unfortunately, I did not get to meet Devan Singh.. nor did I get a chance to walk the isles of the REX and see some of my long time associates.

Thanks to Larry Drake and staff for the opportunity to share my information.

It was great being surrounded by all who attended.

Thanks for making it the BEST REX on my personal record :-)

ME

Josh M.

Mark, it was great meeting you, and your radiant glass is simply a marvel. Your enthusiasm is contagious!

I didn't really get as much as I wanted out of this years REX. If I could sum it up in one sentence it would be, "Where's the beef?" There was a whole lot of product placement and not allot of technical.

When it was in Tacoma, WA there was a ton of technical seminars and good educational material. After this one I was left feeling "greenwashed."

Hotel accommodations were nice, however, way too expensive and isolated. It would be nice to have a hotel with shuttle accommodations from the airport to the hotel so we don't have to pay an extra $72 round trip cab fare just to get there and go home. Also, I can't get the smell of the lobby air freshener out of my nose even 3 days later. Additionally it was about $20 with tip for what should be a "continental breakfast!"

New products I liked? Well I can think of about 101 uses for GrapiHX. I anxiously await the "sandwich" testing. The "Boiler Buddy," is a godsend, especially for Geothermal. Mark's glass is simply something you have to feel to believe! And I expect great things from Caleffi Solar. They really have some amazing product offerings.

Products I didn't like? Taco's solar pumping station uses a 008 which in most cases is about 4X the pump you actually need. Their reasoning? So you can use smaller piping! At least that was the explanation I was given! Well I could also strap a 747 engine to a shaft with Volute and impeller and force the same flow through the pin of a needle but it doesn't make much sense now does it?

Also, not to keep picking on Taco but I'm pretty disappointed in their "green" products. I had a concern about Delta T control being used to control hydraulic differential. When you have a micro-load, say 1 loop for the master bath, on a cold start the pump would run to full speed until the heat comes back through the circuit forcing untold velocities through that micro-zone. They admitted this could be a problem but assured me "Nobody has ever had a problem" and told me that they have hundreds of installs. Of course all of these installs happen to be in other states. What a coincidence. Additionally they gave me solutions to the problem, all of which required me to buy more Taco products. So until either I get a better explanation or an application that keeps it KISS I will stick with differential pressure control.

Kal Row

it was great to meet you mark...

wondering if it's possable to post intructions on how to make a carlson wheel - thanks - kal

Joe Mattiello

Josh
For your reference I attached an article published in the Taco Flopro Team spring 2008 news letter, explaining when it makes sense to use a variable speed delta T circulator. We clearly mention possible velocity issues when using a high head circulator and also offer an inexpensive effective solution by installing a differential by-pass valve. Obviously the objective is to remedy the existing problem by minimizing the noise, and velocity, not to promote additional Taco products. However, fortunately, Taco has the products available to help make your system problematic free. Please read this intuitive article and let me know if you have additional questions or concerns.

You also mentioned the new solar products. In response to the question on the size of circulating pump offered in the Taco Solar Pumping Station, we us the “008” circulator which has been used in closed loop solar applications all the way back to the 70’s. Other suppliers of solar pumping stations use similar sized 3 speed circulators;

Caleffi; 255 Series Dual pump station

Oventrop; Regusol L-130 Transmission Unit

Viessmann; Solar Divicon


Perhaps, in your application a fixed speed 008 circulator may have too much capacity, but the Taco Solar Pumping Station includes a variable speed differential control to adjust the circulator to varying conditions in most domestic water heating and supplemental space heating applications.

Josh M.

I'll read it. BTW you should have your salesmen read it too, because I could tell it wast the first time they thought about it!

Dan Foley

REX

Mark,

I really enjoyed your seminar as well as catching up with you at REX. Best of luck with your new venture. -DF

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singh

Mark

Sorry I missed this year's REX also. Unfortunately, life and work made it impossible for me to responsibly go.
However, I am going to ISH ATL in October, so I hope to see you then.

Good Luck with the new product line!

Devan

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Kal Row

in the end though....

it will have to be an inexpensive ECM pump like the new Laing just out - why would you want to blow away 85w on a $75 retail pump when you can get a $120 40w one

lets take 10years - assuming the pump on runs 1/3 of the heating season, that’s 60 days at a 45watt per hour diff, so it's 45w x 24hrs x 60days x 10yrs / 1killowatt x .10 = $64.8 which would just cover the price difference, but the cost of power is not standing still and NYC its .25 per KW now, that would total $162 even without the price increases

everyone will have to produce ECM pumps to stay in business – do you want the Chinese to take your business away?, they produce ECM stuff for pennies, like your computer’s fan and disk drive – ITT’s B&G and Armstrong are both working on it as we speak – ECM has now become a do or die thing – why would taco be behind the curve on this?

even without ECM and their inherently efficient permanent magnet rotors, just electronic switching would save 1/3rd Power, e.g., take your 1400 series – (a great pump line), pull off the existing split phase stator and replace it with a three phase stator driven by six switching transistors, instantly you have cut the power by one third while greatly increasing the starting torque, the windings once in full production should cost no more, and the electronics in production, should only add $10 to the your production cost – add in r&d/tooling and the retail price should only increase by $30-40 - no brainer! – even to go all out with ecm, a permanent magnet rotor and pancake coil and electronics – should only add $50 to the cost max – and you would cut 4” off the length of your 1400 motors, not to mention the huge torque increase

this is thirty year old technology!!! We should have had it a long time ago!!! – there used to be an argument against electronics in boiler rooms because of reliability – in the face of water and power surges, but with the advent of the new boilers and controls – you need to have protection anyway, so why not go for the fancy pumps

I am ragging on taco because you are the American standard –if someone goes into the “HOME DEsPOT” or “sLOWES” which pump do you think they find on the shelf – a 007 of course

grundfos, wilo, and laing already make them – but they cant sell them until taco will sell them – they need taco to make it “MAINSTREAM” – people are funny that way, to look to the primary vendor to legitimatize a technology – dealers wont stock them - everything is special order with the one.zy-two.zy pricing – you guys paint your pumps green, it’s high time to make them “green” for real

Unknown

I had a great time too. Great attendees, interesting seminars, and while the tradeshow wasn't totally packed with new goodness it had plenty to keep me interested.

really great meeting you in person mark, and you too josh!

now I have to sort through which of 3 new internet systems I looked over we're going to end up using...

John White

comment

Josh and kal, Thanks for the comments. It might not be the right assumption to think Taco is "behind the curve." I will say with great conviction that Taco has NEVER been "behind the curve." I do believe, however, that it is important to try to complete projects and be sure, as best we can, that they are right for this market, before we make a big splash and release them. Your comments are greatly appreciated, and it's nice to know you care about Taco's success, and America's, as we at Taco do about yours. Wait a little bit. jw

Supply House Rick

We love Taco - But

Johnny,

Everyone here admires you and Taco, but you are late on ECM just like you were late on 3-speed. That's why Grundfos just exploded in the last couple of years. You opened the door for them. Now Wilo is starting to make a big splash with the ECM pump. Everybody is talking about WILO! We love Taco, you seem to be reactive instead of proactive. The time is now, if you have it, release it in time for heating season or once again-well, you will be late to the dance.

Franz

Josh M.

Johnny, you are one of the best CEO's out there, and certainly I admire you for what you are doing with Taco.

However, perception is reality! We're real contractors here with real concerns. Taco seems to be in the stone age with high energy consumption pumps. Siggy's been talking about this for 2 years now.

We can't "wait a little bit." Our clients are demanding efficiency and you guys aren't delivering. The reason I am picking on you guys more than the competition is because I have been using your product so long and I don't want "my" manufacturer to be the one that is behind on technology.

Supply House Rick

WILO is the future of a green system

If you are going to install a high efficiency boiler and save on fuel bills, doesn't it make sense to save your customer on electricity?

WILO pumps aren't just painted green. With all due apologies, Taco is way behind the curve just spinning it's impeller.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_12

out of order

Taco & more specifically, Johnny White, is not asleep at the switch. I've had (twice this past year) the opportunity to visit in Cranston, RI with Johnny, his team of dedicated professionals and folks on the floor who sweep floors, put together the nuts & bolts to the guys and gals who ship out the finished products.

I've seen and discussed the pending products and I can tell you emphatically that you will not be disappointed. One thing about Taco that resonates from top to bottom: listening to the end users and actively soliciting feedback/input from all who have an opinion. Then the R&D team is loosed to take those opinions and re-tool the product.

All of the circ mfgrs have great products. Each of those products fits a nitch of some sort. Someone has to be first out of the gate with each new innovation. Taco has had their share of firsts too.

Supply House Rick

Dave, with all due respect

Aren't you the guy on the Grundfos literature? I'm guessing you were invited to Taco, all expenses paid and completely wined and dined? Of course you will say anything. But, your loyalty lies with Grundfos doesn't it or should they change their brochures?

Taco is great company and we love Johnny's passion but it's either on the shelves or it's not. Once again, a day late and a dollar short. Black and white, they missed the boat again. Third place doesn't count.

Franz the green installer

[Deleted User]

I think...

Grundfos and Taco are both very smart for working with Mr Yates...

Taco will come around. They have to. And their loyal following will always be there. Now that they have Barba, there may even be some cross dressing, er I mean product line crossing going on...:-)

Good to see you (albeit breifly) at REX JMB

ME

Unknown

wow.

getting a little high and mighty over $20 of electricity a year saved in a residential application?

I mean, cool, nice job. But please, you are not saving the world with this circulator. It is the very definition of "incremental improvement". the efficiency percentages are good, but taken as an actual volume of electricity, it's tiny. Siggy has to run 20 year energy usage numbers to get anything that makes anyone pay attention at all. I'm not "mr. payback", but I'm not "sell it green at all costs" either, which I think doesn't do REAL green products any service to lump them in with nice but ultimately less important and marginal improvements.

maybe worthwhile, and we'll probably make the switch ourselves at some point, but not enough to validate your comments here Franz. certainly not the same league of improvement as going from conventional to modulating/condensing boiler. There are a hundred other decisions you can make during system design to save this much energy a year, let's not act like it's WILO or nothing.

Supply House Rick

NRT

Don't you think it's people with your $30 a year doesn't add up mentality that has us in economic crisis? Ask your customers if it doesn't matter! Maybe some just read your comment.

This is not personal. I also mentioned Grundfos as being way ahead of Taco's curve. I meant no disrespect towards Taco just that their constant speed pump is antiquated and that WILO has emerged as leader in this new ECM technology.

Go ask Siggy if you don't believe me. As Josh mentioned, Siggy has been talking about this for two years. Grundfos ECM is almost ready and WILO is here. The just sit back and wait mentality doesn't fly.

I don't drink soda but if Coca-Cola flew me in a showed me the sights I would be all "have a coke and a smile baby"

Franz

Josh M.

Rob, my motivation is 30% energy savings and 70% hydraulic differential control. I want (1) simple solution. Not a series of solutions that essentially get me back to square one (i.e. Delta P valve with Delta P pump. I want SIMPLE! Delta P pumps are simple, they install as fast as anything and I can set them up as fast as a Delta P valve. Add two components that essentially end in the same result for more money?

Unknown

I hope my clients do read my comment, because my job is to INFORM them, so they can make their own decisions, not snowball them with my philosophies. Fact is, they'll save about $20/year. Payback might be 5 to 7 years or so, which isn't bad, but that assumes we never have to replace this much more expensive pump. If it ever fails, you have added another 10 to 15 year payback period on the replacement. Hopefully that's not a concern, but with new tech it is always hard to say. That is almost verbatim what I tell my clients who ask, until I have a chance to play with this pump on a volunteer. have my first one in the works right now, in fact.

I don't need to "ask" siggy; that $20/year figure is straight from all of Siggy's writings and lectures on the matter, go re-read it if you need to. I love Siggy: he's a great guy. I learn a lot from him. And his job is to find stuff to write about. I don't find this anything worth writing nearly as much as has been written on it; it's interesting, it's cool, it's one more thing we can do. But it's not really a very big deal in terms of either total energy usage, or cost savings. the only thing that makes it exciting is when you start using efficiency percentages, but a 50% improvement on a very small load ultimately isn't all that exciting to me. the amount of energy saved nationally MIGHT offset all of the plane trips Siggy has taken talking about it. maybe. someday. but don't factor in delivery costs of the magazine articles on it too, or your payback grows

Personally I am not fixated on payback, but I recognize that it is worth concern, as most people have limited resources to dedicate to energy efficiency. I mean, really, why doesn't everyone just go all the way to a net zero home? There is a reason, and it's not a love of paying fuel bills. It's limited resources. when payback goes up, that's a cue to be looking elsewhere to most effectively use your dollars to promote energy efficiency.

Certainly not being first out of the gates with ECM technology is not a reason to act like a jerk. I have other problems with Taco technology, but this is not one of them. Someone had to be first, it wasn't them, and it's not that important anyway. they will get there, prices will come down, and five years from now this technology will be standard on hydronics systems. but using it or not using it today, being the first, second or third out of the gates with it, is so completely irrelevant I can't believe I let you waste this much of my time talking about it.

Unknown

so use it!

I don't fault this technology, it's good technology. it's just not a "oh my god the savior is here" technology, and it's not worth beating anyone up for using or not using it.

I'm not seeing the cost savings up front, from my POV the WILO is significantly more money than pump and PBV.. significantly enough to create the discussion. but then, my labor is different than yours. If the WILO saves you an hour, that probably offsets any material cost difference. great!

but I'm talking low end pumping power here: UP15-58 vs Eco Stratos, which is the pumping range we operate in 90% of the time. I have no idea what the comparison is with bigger pumps because I try like heck not to use them unless it's really necessary.

Josh M.

I agree with you Rob for the most part. I can definatly see things both from your vantage point as a designer, however, I am in the contracting business and I consider myself to be a progressive contractor too. I spent the last year simplifying my systems and tailoring their benefits rather than focusing on features.

Things I need from a system to be benefits to my customers:

-Silent
-No Velocity Noise
-No Expansion and Contraction Noise
-Silent mechanical room (no oversized pumps)
-Energy Saving
-Both electrically and Thermally
-Proper control method that doesn't fight the system
-Comfort beyond anything they have felt before
-Even and Balanced
-Proper radiation ratio
-Clean air
-Maintaining proper indoor air temp (no overshooting!)
-RELIABLE
-Minimizing components to what is necessary
-Using reliable components
-Properly commissioned with PROPER instruments
-Properly documented
-Properly sized and designed
-Best possible upfront investment
-Limiting bells and whistles to what is necessary
-Being efficient as a contractor on labor
-Focusing on individual component BENEFITS

In the past I have been the worst offender of over accessorizing my boiler rooms. I get to express myself in my boiler rooms artistically and get a massive sense of accomplishment on all of them, but my thinking is changing rapidly.

I have found that SIMPLE gives my customers the best possible ROI and they don't care for the most part about what's in the mechanical room as long as they are comfortable and they have low energy costs.

The Bean is right! We need to embrace simple and we need to make our boiler rooms more appliance like. I realized this last year and my new business model is focused on streamlining our products to make them simple, good looking, and full of benefits.

So I'm sorry if I get turned off at the fact that a company's solution to a very valid issue is to have essentially 3 components to solve (1) simple issue that Willo Statos does in a nice appliance like package.

The Taco solution as it stands requires the following (3) components:

-Delta T Pump
-Delta P Valve
-CBV in series with the Delta P valve for balancing, and no I'm not going to do the feel for heat and back the valve off balancing method.

So according to my estimating spreadsheet the Taco solution costs $123 more than the Wilo Stratos labor included. It has way more components to fail and adds approximately 1 square foot to my mechanical wall.

I know I'm just a dumb contractor(And believe me I know that's how we're thought of, I used to work for the local Taco rep.), but I am deciding to embrace what I feel is the future. And I hope I'm right!!!

Unknown

Sorry I can type.

and thanks for the education on what is and is not the real world, and for educating me on how my company does business. Apparently I'll need to study up, since last I knew, you made a pretty good markup on boilers and indirects, and I don't sell them?

Unknown

well, I don't know taco's solution to the overall problem. for us, it's a pump and a bypass, that we just dial in the head pressure we are dealing with. it's pretty simple, though it is 2 components instead of 1, I do prefer modularity when all else is equal, so if a pump fails my client replaces a pump, and if a valve fails he replaces a valve, and he's not replacing both a pump and a valve if the pump fails, you know?

On larger pumps than the up15-58 we use standard as a system pump for most homes under 5000 square feet, I can say the reduction in hammer risk alone makes it worthwhile. but I work pretty hard to minimize those occurrences in distribution design.

embracing the future is great. I am only saying what I said: there is an awful lot of hype around this technology for a difference that is incremental over the past. It's worthwhile, in the end, and at the level I'm talking about when price comes down it'll be even more worthwhile, probably standard.

But it's not a symbol of anything and there is way too much emotional reaction around this issue. I'm not defending taco; I'm just saying this is not the issue to pound them on. rib them, sure, no one likes coming in later to the party. but this is not some statement about who they are as a company, or about who a contractor is depending on the pump choice they make today, or anything like that. that's all.

and anyone who ever saw anything you ever did josh would know for sure you are not a "dumb" anything. After REX my esteem for you has only grown. Please keep pushing the envelope!

hot_rod

Speaking of Coke

In a recent Appliance Design mag they talked about ECM technology being implemented in condenser fans on just vending machines and the huge amount of energy saving potential. This technology makes a lot of sense in a lot of applications.

They also had an article on modulating gas valves for commercial ovens, using pizza ovens as an example. They could be designed to modulate based on the load not just running high fire from start to finish of the shift.

The more we embrace and start implementing newer techonology the more manufacturers will, or should offer product and solutions.

hr

Kal Row

the whirlpool cabrio washers are ecm...

they have the magnets on the outside basket hub, and pancake type stator poles on tub, and it gets amazing torque, in fact if you buy one, better get the top model, that allows you to change the spin speed, cause it spin dries so fast it wrinkles perm-pres cloths – good for towels tough – less drying time - and it’s really quiet

Kal Row

besides, the future of green is us!!!..

no one vendor is going to make it happen – we have to edjumcate our customers and make it cool and fun and reliable but also simple like the bean says, ecm pumps, even though they may themselves be sophisticated – make the “system” simpler – we need to embrace this

there are people that still wont get condensing boilers – in fact I just did a boiler room design and diag for a plumber that only wanted to use cast iron natural daft standing pilot boilers – and this for a radiant house that has tons of building automation wires running al over the place that will give them orders upon orders of magnitude more grief than the worst quality condensing boiler out there ever would – so I had to design to injection systems for radiant and snowmelt to protect the boilers – is that wasteful or what, – the plumber wont let me talk to the owner – if I was a tree hugger I would have him put away

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_12

and

I have people I consider to be friends at most of the circ mfgrs. One of the more amazingly resilient sectors of the hydronics industry. I too think there's merit regarding the parasitic energy losses on the electrical side of the mechanical room & that goes way beyond just circs. I simply felt (still do) that the comments made here went beyond the pale for a public forum. You're only part-right about reimbursement. I paid for my flight the first trip and the hotel and my meals - except for dinner. I went a day early for Viessmann training so that I could visit with Johnny and his team - on my own nickel. The second visit was also a double-trip because I volunteered to sit in with the students and faculty at RISD as an advisor for their 2009 Solar Decathlon designs. Without Johnny's help, RISD would have had to foot the bill.

With all due respect, I'd suggest you privately e-mail scathing critiques instead of staging a public affront. Taco accepts constructive criticism better than just about anybody I know.

Josh M.

I disagree, this is a subject worth discussing in a public forum. This is a debate between industry professionals. If you are going to introduce a product and say that it's the right way to do something you are opening up for criticism. Nothing stated here has been a false accusation.

Do I wish my comments didn't go this far? Yes, but the discussion is valid and it sparked a debate that I am learning from!

ALH_4

Economics and Energy Savings

I agree with your viewpoint Rob. The savings in a properly designed residential system under 4,000 sf or so is relatively small. I spent quite a bit of time talking with Steve Thompson at Wetstock, and I think the stratos and eco are great products. I would love to see them installed them on every job. I'm just not sure how much economic sense they make at this point. However, I can definitely see the advantage of the Stratos in commercial or large residential applications.

It really depends on whether the customer wants to spend extra money to save energy. However, more often the question boils down to a balance of efficiency and capital cost, and a 15-58 w/ dP are the answer right now.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_12

agreed

it is a valid issue. However, there's a huge difference between a discussion, or debate, and a confrontational approach that leaves one of the participants no room. Civil discourse is the right course IMHO. As Rob pointed out, this is not a live or die issue, but bears a closer look. The technology is well on its way.

Darin Cook_5

One thing is for sure

Our little world of hydronics here in the US is getting pulled kicking and screaming into the 21st Century with alot of 1950's minded contractors with it.

I think of Riello oil burners that came here to do business against the likes of mighty Beckett, Carlin and others. They had all kinds of cool features, things that were all options on the domestic burners and cost more money. Know what happened - everything Riello included on their burners were copied by Beckett and friends. Now folks expect all of these features to be STANDARD on all burners.

Circulators will be the same, eventually, the majority of circulators will all be ECM. Just one more piece of the energy reduction pie.


Kudos to Wilo for being the first one to bring an ECM pump to market (hey they are the company that actually invented the circulator!!), but the other guys will come around. I am sure Taco has taken a good hit with all of the competition out there but they also seem to be a company that not only sells product but cares about the industry it is in. That is readily obvious when you meet Johnny White.


Do not discount the savings to be had with an ECM motor, if a little savings did not matter there would be NO solar installs going on. People WANT these kinds of products. As a smart contractor/business GIVE IT TO THEM!!!!!!!!!!! Because if you don't, someone else will.







Darin

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DanHolohan

A suggestion for Franz:

As you strive to save us, you might want to work a bit on your people skills.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_11

I cringe

every time I go into my 15-year-old mechanical room. 10-circs for zoning + a primary loop circ + 2 high-head circs! Been planning my make-over attack and I've got the new circ. Now, if I could only find the time................