Copper tubing and steam heat

tim smith

Maybe offer to split the difference with him, as stated in the article it is an approved method but not normal standard practice in the field as far as we are concerned. My big concern with copper is not as much the melting temp of solder or braze rod, it is the amount of expansion and contraction that will occur with copper at steam temps. Just my .02 worth. It looks like this is an easy change with the pipe size and amount needed. Just makes sense.

Seth_8

Copper pipe used for steam delivery in new kitchen

Hi guys,

I'm having my kitchen re-done and everything is going great. I've been satisfied with my contractor and his crew's craftsmanship and attention to detail. I've been watching like a hawk making sure all my questions have been answered.

The plumbing has gone very well. Everything is fine but I have one issue. I had two steel steam pipes that came up from the basement inside the wall and upstairs to two cast iron radiators. Since I blew out the load bearing walls exposing the pipes they had to be re-routed under the floor and up another wall. So instead of traveling straight up, they go along the floor for about 5 feet to the wall, straight up the wall and then make a 90 degree bend just above the ceiling and join with the original cast iron fittings.

They used copper for this. Everything from my boiler going out is steel with cast iron fittings. For these two pipes, once the old steel pipes hit the first floor (60 feet or so from the boiler) it turns to copper for the two new pipes and then meets with the original steel pipes upstairs.

I immediately expressed my concern that the plumber didn't use steel for both strength and preventing corrosion leading to a leak. My contractor ensured me that the copper is not under stress like it would be closer to the boiler and that the Teflon (I think that is what he said) used at the fittings would not cause corrosion. I asked him a few times and he insisted.

Like I said, his work has been excellent thus far but should I be concerned about this one issue? Or given the location of the new copper pipes, it won't be a problem like he said.

See attachment

Jim Bennett

It is....

generally not thought to be a good practice by most steam fitters.
I personally would not do it. But, I found this on the Web.

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/cu_tube_steam_systems.html

Interesting reading.

Keith_33

Test it before you close up the walls and you'll be fine. Don't torpedo you contractor over a minor detail like this.

Seth_8

Thanks guys...

He definitely tested it. He cranked my thermostat to 80 degrees and the boiler blasted for a while. It was monitored and no leaks.

My thought was that since steel and cast iron was originally used, then why not use it again? It obviously lasted almost 90 years and was still going strong. After all it was just a few feet piping.

My thoughts were that it was probably cheaper and less time consuming to do it with copper.

I guess time will tell. I'm still waffling on whether to make a further stink about it. After all, it's my house, my money and I want it done right because to change it 5 years down the line means opening a ceiling, wall and floor.

Unknown

from the look

From the look at the picture, anglewise, looks like you have pockets and will have problems down the road... should been iron pipes/fittings..

Bruce M_2

Where do you live?

You need to find yourself an older or retired plumber or heating system installer. If you have a plumbing union hall near you it should be easy to find one. Have him look at the work and correct it. You did not say where you are located or the model of your steam boiler. You might want to ask you contractor how many steam boilers he has installed.

Seth_8

The copper pipes that feed into the original fittings are pitched at like a 45 degree angle if that means anything to you guys.

I spoke again with him this morning and he still insisted that this is fine given it's proximity to the boiler. He said he has done this type of re-routing for radiators for many years and never received any call backs with leaks. He wouldn't spend all this time with a decorative ceiling, etc... only to have to rip it up because of poor workmanship. But he said he would rip it up and do it the way I want.

His plumber is coming back tomorrow to assess the situation. His plumber's employees did the work. This way I can pick his brain too.

The last thing I am is a ball buster but when I see something which I feel is fishy, I'm going to speak up.

I've always assumed that steel and iron on the supply side were used with steam for a reason. Why mess with a good thing? Correct?!

gerry gill

this may help

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newPages/pdf/32_43_58.pdf

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klaus

All iron

I did a job in the late 90's replacing all the steam piping in a 150+ year old church. Seems the original steam piping started failing sometime in the 60's. After replacing a few pipes they decided to repipe the system. Who ever did it in the 60's did the entire system in copper. After 30 years of noisey expanding, contracting, and repairing leaks, the church contracted with my employer to repipe the entire system in iron pipe. This was one of my first jobs as an apprentice and it made quite an impression on me.

If I had steam in my house, I'd insist on black iron piping only.

That said if the contractor figured the cost of the job using copper you could offer to split the expense of changing it out with him, if you decided to do so. I wouldn't have a problem with doing that if my customer was decent about it.

Seth_8

Thanks for the help guys.

Good news - the contractor came this morning and said he will change it out for steel before I mentioned something to him. I thanked him and offered (like you guys suggested) to cover half the cost. He said absolutely not, he will take care of it all.

So it seems my concern will be taken care of. Everything else is going great so I am happy my only issue thus far has been addressed and taken care of without extra cost.

klaus

Sounds like you're dealing with a real professional Seth. Good for you

gerry gill

yup,

sounds like your contractor is a real stand up fellow..your in good hands.

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Seth_8

Thanks guys, I'll post up an image or two after the work is done. The contractor chuckled because he said re-doing it will be a good thing because it turned out he needed room to mount the housing for a recessed lighting fixture exactly where the pipes are! So he will run the line a few inches higher. He built a "coffered" ceiling (an on the fly decision) to hide a steel I-beam that was installed to carry the load after load bearing walls were removed. One of the squares in the ceiling was smack in the middle of the steam pipes going into the fittings.

Seth_8

Quick Update

Hi guys, the plumber came back today and replaced the work with new steel and fittings. Here are the new pipes going into the original fittings. I'll spare you the rest of the images showing the piping.

Of course it is 93 degrees here today and the boiler was steaming for god knows how long testing the new work! I came home to steaming hot cast iron radiators and pumping air conditioning!

Thanks again for your help! Issue resolved!

Dave Stroman

Not a good idea to bury a union in the ceiling. With any movement of the radiator, you can break the seal on that union, and then you will be tearing into your ceiling.

Dave Stroman