Advice on Replacement

Maine Ken

Frank, I agree with the need for flexibility. I agree that we should have multi fuel options. All I am pointing out is that there is a cost for this. When you state that there only has to be a burner change, you are leaving out the large expense of removing and installing an oil tank whenever you switch. It is not like you can keep burners on a shelf and just swap them back and forth. I bring this up only so that the homeowner in question may realize what all of the costs are.

Our residential customers suffer because codes, rules and regulations fail to keep pace with the real world. Insurance companies are also not very forgiving when one skips a code requirement or two.

Of course this is pointless for those who are in areas with no code coverage or simply don't care.



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Angela_2

Advice on Replacing Steam Boiler

Hi,

Looking for thoughts on replacing my 1911 Steam boiler. I have a one pipe system and need a boiler that can handle about 739 EDR (includes a 1.5 pu factor). It runs on oil. One big question that looms is whether I should by an oil burner or a gas burner. Right now natural gas is cheaper, but will that stay true? Seems unlikely to me. I was thinking that sticking with oil might make more sense, since at least oil systems appear top be convertible to other fuels, i.e. biodiesel, vegetable oil, propane, even back to coal, etc. Also, there is only one way to get gas into the house (monopoly utility company), where the other fuels seem more flexible since in theory anyway I could go get the fuel myself. Am I wrong about this?

What are the major quality manufacturers I should consider for steam?

Bruce M_2

Steam Boiler

Smith 8 seies boiler. Look here:

http://www.smithboiler.com/html/series8.asp

Steamhead (in transit)

The 8 series

can also burn gas, it's called the G-8 if ordered this way:

http://www.smithboiler.com/html/g8.asp

This gives you the option of switching fuels by having a pro change the burner and a few trim items, and tune the new burner properly. You wouldn't need to buy a completely new boiler.

Here's a pic of a G-8 we installed recently. We are in the process of installing another one, watch the Wall for pics when we're done.

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Maine Ken

Frank, According to NFPA 31:

7.13.2 If an oil storage tank is temporarily removed from service, for whatever reason, for the tank and all piping connected to it, including the outside fill and vent piping and any piping connected to the appliance, the following criteria shall be met:

1. They shall be emptied of all contents
2. They shall be cleaned and rendered free of all combustible vapors.


This sure covers swapping over to a gas burner. The only way to clean a tank and remove all vapors, that I know of, is to remove it and cut it open.

Something to think about!!

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Steamhead (in transit)

If it's an old tank

you'd want to remove it anyway. But a tank is less expensive than a boiler to buy and install.......

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Maine Ken

I agree. However when switching fuels it is not just a matter of "This gives you the option of switching fuels by having a pro change the burner and a few trim items, and tune the new burner properly." You would need to install an oil tank as well.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Of course

the infrastructure has to be there, including a gas supply line. But that's another issue. The point is, you don't need to replace the entire boiler to switch fuels if you have one that the manufacturer certifies and supplies as either oil- or gas-fired.

As fuel prices get higher and fuel supplies get less reliable, the ability for a boiler to use more than one fuel will be an important consideration. Commercial installations have had this capability for decades, yet we don't see too many manufacturers offering it in residential units. Why should our residential customers suffer?

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Tim_62

wood boiler add-on

Hi.
I would like to install an wood fired wood boiler to my existing oil fired boiler. How should it be piped?
I have been thinking about having valves so I may run on oil only, wood only, or wood primary with oil as a back-up if the wood burns low. I think this would be series with the wood boiler in series first then flow thru the oil boiler. If the water temp. is not high enough the oil will fire.

If you have any info for this type of project I would enjoy your input.

Thank-you,
Tim

Bruce M_2

Oil Tank

The question above is from Angela who already has an oil tank. If any switching were done it would be to gas.

Angela_2

Advice on Replacing Steam Boiler: fuel options

Thanks to all of you who have taken up this question.

The thing is, I realize the basic decision is between oil and gas. In favor of oil, what I was getting at is that an oil boiler can be converted to other types of fossil fuels, such as biodiesel, propane, even vegetable oil, or as Tim has suggested, wood (hadn't thought that one was possible). I got this idea because the current boiler was originally designed for coal, but was subsequently and quite successfully converted to oil.

Am I wrong?

My understanding is that if I choose gas, I am stuck with gas, except in the instance that you discussed yesterday. But the result of that discussion is also that once I convert, I am converted for good, and have to get rid of all the oil stuff.

In my dreams, I DID have a shelf with a bunch of burners on it No oil available, let's get some biodiesel or propane, out of that? Let's hit the streets and round up some vegetable oil. Or coal. Or wood. You know, whatever it takes. Of course, I know that it would take some skill to swap these burners out and reconfigure, but wondered if this was something we could learn, or our service guy could learn.

But if the gas flow is interrupted, there really isn't a damn thing I can do to heat this house up, is there?

Am I wrong in this assumption? I am afraid I am trying to out-think a big utility crisis, when perhaps there is no way around such a thing except a wood burning stove (and then only if you have a lot of wood handy). I realize that at the moment natural gas is a lot cheaper, but I just don't trust these guys. Once everybody's on board with natural gas, they'll be all about demand being up and a shortage of supply, and before you know it we won't be able to afford gas either.

What would the best of you do if you thought like I think?

Steamhead (in transit)

Ken, I was discussing

what needed to be done to the boiler itself to change it over. From here, there's no way I could cover every different installation or Code situation. That is- rightly so- left up to the installing contractor.

"Steamhead"

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Maine Ken

I am with you. First round is on me in Sept!

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Steamhead (in transit)

I'd use the Smith G-8, as described above

if one of that model series will handle the load. That way you have a boiler that can burn oil or gas, and you are not tied to one fuel supplier.

Bio may or may not be a way out of the oil situation, but I understand UL has just approved a standard for B5 (5% bio/95% #2 fuel oil) so at least the safety questions have been answered, and local Codes satisfied. At least one burner maker (Beckett) has already OK'd B5 in its burners- haven't heard about Carlin, Riello or Wayne but they can't be far behind.

Burning wood is another proposition. A standard oil or gas boiler can't burn wood, but there are some combination boilers that can. They tend to be much bulkier though, and wood requires far more attention then oil or gas.

BTW, is the 739 square feet you mention the actual amount of radiation you have, or the result of adding a pick-up factor?

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Angela_2

Advice on Replacing Steam Boiler: fuel options

The 739 is with a 1.5 pickup factor -- I actually have 493 EDR. I don't think I'm gonna use that pickup factor after all. I don't think my house has runs that are all that long. Next door (I have a duplex) they have a boiler that is technically undersized, i.e. there is absolutely no pickup factor-- the net IBR Steam Sq Ft is 450, yet the boiler manages to do alright heating the house up (our houses are identical, though the basement is piped a bit differently and somebody removed one radiator).

I talked to a Smith rep and the firing rate on a 6 section is a lot higher than I'm firing at now. While today I can't remember the number, it was high enough to shock me and make me wonder whether I would save a dime firing like that. After we discussed it a bit, it seemed that I could probably get an effective replacement with a 5 section, which can fire at either 1.4 or 1.7.

All this really has me wondering just how much I will actually save with a new boiler. There will be some savings in combustion efficiency, and some in heat exchange efficiency, and if I could also fire at 1.4... But I'm wondering if this is really gonna add up. I want to be able to calculate how many years before I recap the investment. I don't remember exactly, but I believe I'm firing at 1.5 or at most, 1.6 right now. My boiler heats this house up very well, the system is mostly quiet, and I only have one problem room (out of 10) with radiators that don't warm up enough.

Also, I bet my snowman boiler is the most flexible of all. I could throw coal in the box tomorrow, or wood, couldn't I? Maybe I'm wrong, but it is hard for me not to have a lot of respect for a boiler that is still kicking **** 97 years later. There is no product on the market today that even thinks about that kind of longevity.

Steamhead (in transit)

The 5-section 8-series boiler

would be the right choice. You could probably down-fire it a bit since its rating is 525 square feet. Here's a pic of that very boiler we installed recently, this one has the gas burner.

Note that on the 8 series, the oil burner option has two firing rates available for each model but the gas burner is only approved for the lower of those two rates. Not sure why this is, but you want to use the lower rate when sizing these boilers for a job where the owner might want to switch fuels.

If you want, leave the snowman piped in and valved off, with the new boiler raised so its waterline is the same as the snowman's. But be aware that snowmen were never very efficient.

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