boiler water treatment aluminum heat exchanger

badgerboilerMN

Last fall, one of the many ModCons we installed was a WM Ultra. The homeowner has a multi-zone fin-tubed home and wanted a "Green" boiler and water heater (indirect of course). The installation was a great success and saved 15% on their fuel bill last year.

I replaced a failed HX on another Ultra this spring, leaking from wet side to burner. NO startup procedure was followed and the installer proved himself unqualified by other obvious mistakes in design and installation. WM gave me a new boiler and hundreds of dollars labor allowance.

It is my understanding that the Buderus GB series enjoys great success as thousands have been installed here in the US (cast aluminum HX) and perhaps millions installed world wide. But they probably don't know much.

Of the dozen or so Buderus GB’s we have installed over the last 4 years, zero have failed, zero have needed parts, only half have been properly service since startup: since you can send a service notice but you can't make your customer call you back.

I have to say we have the same luck with Munchkins, NTI’s, and Triangle Tubes (SS HX's).

It is frustrating to see such prejudice so early in the game. I guess it would be better for everyone to go back to the old reliable CI hog, throw her in, feed her well and check back every generation or two to see if she's peed on the floor yet.

Kindest regards,

MA

Ron J

weil mclain ultra 195

I am installing a weil mcclain ultra 105 gas boiler. The boiler has and aluminum heat exchanger and you are supposed to maintain a the boiler water ph between 7 and 8.5. I have heard that there is a chemical that can be used that you just add so much for each gallon of water and it will adjust and keep the ph correct. Is there such a chemical, what is the chemical, and is it safe to use with an aluminum heat exchanger.

Drew_2

Aluminum pH

If your running water only in your system the pH is usually 7 or a bit above. Have it checked. Some parts of the Country do have water below 7. Run DI or distilled water.
If you want to add an inhibitor in the system, you can add Noburst AL inhibitor, the same one that we add to our Noburst AL antifreeeze.
If you have more ?s give me a call. 800-678-6625

Drew

Derheatmeister

Rhomar

I use Rhomar 9100 to clean the system ,and the 922 with uninhibited Glycol; or Rhogaurd .call :1 800 543 5975 or www.rhomarwater.com.also: be careful with the DI Water.

Bill Clinton_5

Aluminum heat exchangers

Suppose you got the right treatment. Also suppose you do recommended annual maintenance. Lastly, suppose that right after your maintenance call, the bladder bursts on your expansion tank. Your pressure relief is neatly piped to a plumbing drain, so no one sees the pressure relief dumping water with every burner cycle. What do you suppose that aluminum heat exchanger will look like six months down the road? I know. I've seen it. You don't want to. I for one am never again going to buy aluminum.

Bill

Jed_2

And even

without these potential "system" failures, does the homeowner EVER get advised of the additional, life-cycle, "over-and above" maintaintenace costs inherent in
an aluminum block HX? Seems to undermine the "efficiency" benefits right off the top, (or bottom) line. I won't buy one, either.

Jed

hot_rod

What sort of gas bill, Bill?

for that system? What would ANY boiler look like after 6 months of continous make up water? Copper tube? Stainless mini coil?

While I tend to agree with you on aluminum in general, that doesn't sound like a material failure or mismatch caused problem.

hr

Glenn Sossin_2

warranty

If you expect/want to have any kind of warranty on the exchanger by the mfg that will actually be honored, I would strongly suggest you completely read the installation manual and/or contact the manufacturer - in writing (email)for an approved list of chemicals and procedures. In addition, keep a maintenance log on site to show that you inspected and treated the boiler annually, as virtually every condensing manufacture requires.

I've heard plenty of issues/stories/excuses, but not heard of honored warranties on exchangers. I've gotten similar types of feedback from several manufacturers and reps - heres what I've gotten so far.

From what I've been able to gather, the European market, where these condensing boilers primarily originate, have warranties sometimes as little as 2 years on the exchanger. The citizens are of the mentality that they will replace their boiler every 10 years or less as a normal occurrence. They want the latest in efficiency and the lowest pollution product available - they are environmentally driven. In the UK for example, you can only install a condensing boiler.

It is/was nothing like this in the US market. We bought a cast iron boiler thinking it will last 25 -35 years or more. Think about all those Smith Mills boilers out there in use. In most instances, we changed them out because of fuel combustion technologies and system efficiencies - not because of product failures.

It is common, in Europe, for the manufacturer to offer a service/maintenance contract directly to the homeowner. They have official government sponsored boiler inspections yearly, just like we have DMV emissions testing. They come into your home with combustion analyzers and manometers - fail... and your boiler is shut down - it doesn't matter if its cold out.

I think we are going to see a rash of problems/stories evolve over the next few years from the aluminum - S/S boilers, simply because most contractors don't service them properly. The manufacturers are going to point to their manuals and say "your warranty is void because the outlined monthly inspections/annual service were not performed as we document in our instruction manual/warranty. You don't have a dated log sheet supporting the claim of servicing".

I have one customer who had an exchanger plug up within a 3 year period and the manufacturer didn't honor it because they claimed he didn't treat the system fill water - imagine that?

I was speaking with an industry authority earlier this week who indicated that iron in solution, from piping/fittings and cast iron radiation will become a major issue for these new condensing boilers. In his opinion, the aluminum / SS products are best suited for pex and copper installs - not where there is existing Cast Iron radiation. This issue will be particularly prevalent with the Giannoni exchangers that have high head losses - narrow waterways.

I heard another comment from a mfg insider who said a lot of these products will be lucky to see 6 years of trouble free operation. Thinking of what the typical installation cost to the homeowner is, I was particularly upset by this. I don't want to sell a product, that will experience, what we in the US would consider to be a pre-mature failure; then have to tell the contractor/homeowner that the boiler is not covered under warranty because you did not perform, or can't document, that the annual maintenance service was performed as outlined/required in the instruction manual.

While I sell the boilers - don't install them, I suspect the installation contracts for these products typically run between 8K -10K and more. Is the typical homeowner prepared that they may have to spend thousands of dollars again in 10 12 years?

If most of what I just commented about is true, I smell rough times ahead.

Curious - anybody out there have experienced exchanger failures ? What kind of support did the manufacturer provide?

Really hope I'm wrong.

My $.02

Glenn

Jed_2

No failures, yet, but

have had some problems with combi units and untreated well water.

As far as the longevity of these HX's, that's where I see the Mestek Ray boiler shining through. 20-30 years, or longer on the HX, IAR (Indoor Air Reset)and many other control features.

Glenn Sossin_2

RAY Boiler

I agree. Actually, I just came from the Plant in Boyerstown earlier this week- took a few customers down there, and met with Don Pratt- Director of the Reed Institute. What a knowledgeable guy - simply amazing.

I am trying to verify a lot of the information that I picked up there with other sources. On the face of it, this seems to be the product that can be installed on virtually any residential system - a CV value of 100 - you could blow through this boiler with a straw.

They claim it can operate 24/7 for 23 years straight in a condensing mode. I particularly like their control board - 8 tt contacts - each one learning the response curves of that zone. It's like having 8 Beckett Heatminders for each zone of your boiler.

Being made of Cast Iron - it won't really matter if there is Cast Iron radiation connected to it - the iron in solution won't affect it.

The board I think may be the weakest link. I have to look into this further. If we bring them into stock (which I'm inclined to do), we will have to keep this board on the shelf along with some other key components to support the installations.

This looks like the product that will last. If I were a homeowner, I'd rather spend my money once on a Ray boiler, rather than an aluminum/stainless product, and go through the entire process - remove/re-install/maintenace treatments/warranty claim in +/- 10 years like the Europeans.

My $.02

Glenn

Bill Clinton_5

Hi, Hot Rod

Given that the water is not particularly hard, many boilers would do just fine. Lots of copper "boosters" out there that continuously heat fresh water year after year with no problem. HTP makes a version of the munchkin for that kind of service. I would expect no problem with my favorite boiler, the Prestige from Triangle Tube. I would expect a lot of cast iron boilers would do ok for six months: I know they can because I've seen them do it, lots of times, and I'll bet you have too and I'll bet most contractors on this site have also seen it, fixed it, and had no thought of replacing the boiler.

It does not take a huge amount of water lost and refilled to remove all chemical protection from an aluminum boiler and when that protection is gone, that boiler goes south in one heckuva hurry. Why would anyone want to risk it?

Bill

Steve Ebels_3

It's interesting to see...........

A lot of the wood "boiler" manufacturers are now specifying all kinds of crap for the care and maintenance of their product. Most of these are open systems which are installed by folks totally unfamiliar with boiler water treatment, let alone in an open system.

Some of the bigger names in the outdoor wood burner market are now specifying that their product be filled and then kept filled with DI or distilled water. This will happen when pigs fly and the dollar is worth a dollar again. Some are mandating that in order for the warranty to remain in effect, a water sample has to be submitted annually. Actually not a bad idea as it forces the HO to get "involved" in the care and maintenance of their heating equipment.

Needless to say there have been a significant number of sorely disappointed home owners who have experienced a failure in the water jacket of these creatures and only then read the "fine print". Horror stories abound.

I'd actually like to see the traditional boiler manufacturers follow the lead of Dectra Industries, the maker of the Garn hydronic heater. The company has announced that their product will be warranted for 25 years under the following program. Once a year, the owner will receive a sample jar which they are expected to fill and return to Dectra. The sample is analyzed and if needed,the appropriate chemical is sent and billed to the customer. As long as this program is followed, the warranty remains in effect. Miss a year and your warranty is history. It puts some of the responsibility for system maintenance where it belongs, on the shoulders of the equipment owner.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

gerry gill

or you can go thru life like i do,

believing that ALL manufacturers warranties are crap!!!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Cosmo_3

Very interesting!!

I wanted to thank you for this post.

I live in Allentown, PA and around here there is a whole mess of gravity CI radiator systems. I have been concerned with the potential for early heat exchanger failures using stainless steel mod/cons.

I read through the literature of the Ray, and since Boyertown is only about an hour away I called to schedule a visit to the factory.

This may be what I have been looking for....

Thanks again

Cosmo

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

I agree with BadgerBoiler

I install Utica UB95M-200 with aluminum heat exchangers and they work great. I am more confident in a one piece cast aluminum heat exchanger than a stainless steel heat exchanger that is put together with bolts and gaskets. Utica guarantees their heat exchangers for 15 years and the heat exchangers and boilers are made right here in the USA. Buderus and Utica both told me that they have used aluminum heat exchangers for over 25 years, if they had problems they would go to stainless, wouldn't they. If the water in your area is that bad why not leave the water supply shut off? Most Mod-Cons have low water cutoffs anyway don't they? You can't ignore the heat exchange ability of aluminum, it's 5 times faster than stainless. I'm told that if a heat exchanger allows condensate to puddle it will harm any material, I have seen it take the finish off a cast iorn slop sink. Buderus and Utica tell me that they have a vertical heat exchanger which allows all the condensate to drain and not sit in the boiler.

Thanks, Bob Gagnon

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

interesting thread.

I'm concerned about the rate of sacrificial corrosion I see on the flame side of the GB's I have installed.

I did the mineral oil cleaning this year and it was a time consuming job which I probably undercharged for because I was feeling guilty about the maintenance and longevity issues. I discussed the issues openly with one customer and he wasn't as concerned with the possibility of a 10 year life expectancy as I would have thought. He just figures we will fix it if fails sort of like a car he understands that it works hard and won't last forever. One nice thing about most modcons is the modular construction and easy breakdown. I hope that if the GB exchanger fails in a decade it will be available for replacement and priced reasonably.

Given the price of an norton igniter that I replaced recently I'm not so confident this will be the case (I was reimbursed by warranty). Seems this ignighter was made in the USA shipped to germany and then shipped back to the US, I'm sure this had an effect on it's cost.

US consumers may have an expectation of quarter century or more life spans from their heating equipment, but is it realistic to believe that fuel will be affordable by then? Efficiency may come with some drawbacks and risks but perhaps assuming the affordability of future energy sources is an even higher risk.

Glenn Sossin_2

Ray Boiler

The life expectancy issue is exactly why I think the RAY boiler will become a serious contender in the condensing market place - particularly where existing iron radiation/piping is involved.

They talked up how beefy it is, how it can condense 23yrs 24/7 and still work, yet their warranty does not keep place with the rhetoric. They have a pro-rated warranty that goes out 25 yrs see attachment. I think they should re-consider their warranty. If it's as good as they say, they can really stand apart from all the other products in the market place.

I also attached the warranty Gianonni puts out. Notice the reference to magnetite. I believe this is iron/rust in solution. From what they represented, once a deposit starts, it continues to grow like plaque in an artery. The narrow design heat exchangers like the munchkin, that use this exchanger, are particularly vulnerable to this situation if there is cast iron radiation in the system. According to them, the Ray, being made of cast iron, would not be affected by this.

My take, this is a great marketing tool to the homeowner - buy a boiler that will last 30 yrs plus like the one your taking out now due to advances in efficiency technology ... not because it leaked.

We will know in the next few years as the base of un-treated / un-serviced mod-cons start to age.

My $.02

Glenn

Unknown

Glen,

The pdf's you posted come up as an exe. extension on my system, I can't open them.

Glenn Sossin_2

Not sure

Don't know why but they are actually pdf files. If you click on it and select open with Adobe Acrobat they will open.

Or, download the file and change the name extension to be .pdf . When I clicked on it, shows as attachment.cfm but I was able to open by selecting open with Adobe Acrobat.

badgerboilerMN

I think we have to lower expectations. Cast iron was grand when fuel was cheap. The average cast iron boiler lasts 35 years...of low efficiency.

Maintenance is what we do. People maintain their cars (cost more, used less) and expect to pay for it. Been to a dealership lately?

badgerboilerMN

I just had a discussion with a Chemical Engineer from one of the boiler treatment companies. He didn't like the 9.5 pH I read on my last test and recommended an inhibitor made for aluminum. He was more concerned with the proper inhibitor than the pH as that is just the indicator.

badgerboilerMN

Distilled water is like a vacuum; it seeks everything in the system. I use water from a known source if I don't like the water onsite. Soft, 7 to 8.5 pH makes most of the ModCon manufacturers happy.