total square feet of radiation

Steamhead (in transit)

of each of your radiators and post them here? Include the height of each one. We can tell you what you need.

BTW, they do make steam boilers smaller than 355 square feet.

"Steamhead"

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stamato_5

Toal square feet of radiation

Had someone tell me that my radiation was 416 square feet. They measured the first floor and used a 12% multiplier for the 1st and 2nd floors.

The steamer I am replacing is a 440 sq ft steamer.

I thought that I had measured properly. I measured everything: the headers, mains, and risers. I came up with a total for the whole house of 295 sq ft.

I have a 2 1/2 story 21x25 late 20s colonial. Does my calculation seem out of whack. If it looks correct why is the boiler so much bigger than the existing radiation. The boiler was installed around 1970.

Why did the boiler guy get 120 sq ft more than I did.

He also mentioned that with my numbers that it would be a very small boiler, said the smallest made is 355 sq ft.

How do I make sense of it all

stamato_5

I am pretty sure of the radiators. I used all the correct charts. I am more concerned if anyone thinks that the amount of radiation looks out of whack for a 21x25 1920s colonial in the NJ NY metro area. And if the calculation done by the rep was a normal and reliable method. I am going to check my charts again tonight and do a quick check on my measurements to make sure I am correct. I am trying to sway everyone I call to use the smith G-8 but I get a lot of silence on the other end of the line when I start realing off info learned here. A lot of installers like the pot of water setting on a flame method. Also think I am crazy for wanting a dual burner. They always think it is for commercial.

They also get baffled about the chimney. If it is gas they say I should line it but then if it is oil.... They just get confused since there is a potential for 2 fuels.

Steamhead (in transit)

Are you the gentleman

who called Palmer Heating about a G-8?

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stamato_6

Yes I am. You had mentioned I should contact them. He said he may call you. He has been very helpfull, just extremely busy.

This is how I figured my radiators. Also added pics of them

I have 5 of the same radiators you see in the kitchen photo which are stamped "Burnham Radiant", they are recessed.
Burnham Radiants H=20" W=5" 2.25'sq per section

-Kitchen: 14 sections =31.5' sq

-bathroom: 6 sections =13.5' sq

-south east bedroom: 8 sections =18' sq

-north east bedroom: 14 sections =31.5' sq

-west bedroom: 12 sections =27' sq

-dining room: Wiel McLain Cameo H=26 1/2" width:5 tubes each 1 1/4" wide. 9 sections 3.5ft sq per section = 31.5' sq

- Living room: Peerless American Radiator.
H=22" Width of the 3 columns 2 1/2", 3", 2 1/2"
22 sections 3ft sq per section = 66' sq

- Attic: Peerless American Radiator.
H=26" Width of the 3 columns 2 1/2", 3", 2 1/2"
6 sections 3.75ft sq per section = 22.5' sq

total radiators are: 241.5'sq

risers are: 33'sq

mains are: 41'sq

complete load = 316'sq

Anyway here is some attachments of my mess. That hunk of metal setting on top my boiler came off the top of the cast iron boiler. It is about the size of my hand. I need a new boiler. And I also realize that I need to replace the copper.

stamato_5

Also wanted to add that I know that the mains need insulation. I have left them exposed just in case someone wants to see them before a new boiler goes in.

Steamhead (in transit)

You don't need

to add the piping to the boiler's output if the pipes are insulated or will be insulated, this will result in an oversized boiler. This load is already included in the Net and Square Feet ratings of the boiler.

Your radiation figures are perfect. You need the 3-section G-8, which is rated 283 square feet of radiation. You might even be able to down-fire it slightly.

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Steamhead (in transit)

A dual burner

is only found in the larger commercial sizes. The G-8 can burn either gas or oil with the Correct Burner For Each Fuel. To switch fuels, you'll need to switch burners (and barametric draft regulators). If you burn gas, you most likely will need to have your chimney relined. A stainless steel liner will last longer.

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stamato_5

You guys are the best. And you said "perfect". My wife always tells me "It doesn't have to be perfect" which really means "Hurry the hell up".

I want to mention that I am currently going through an energy audit and having cellulose blown in. They are also going to tighten up the infultration around the foundation and the attic. I was hoping that this may allow me to change that unsightly monster of a radiator in my living room to something smaller. After playing with and trying to balance the system it never heated more than a 3rd or halfway last year anyway. I am hearing that I better not change any of the radiation. It could make the system unballanced.

Are the two radiators to the North West (in the header pic the two take offs to the right) ok without return pipes for the condensation.

Also any comments on the "measure one floor and add 12%" method of measurement. Geuss it really doesn't matter now though.

Couple more question. What about switching fuels, if the chimney is lined can I run both types of fuel in there. Can the chimney be shared with an atmospheric gas water heater that I already have or should I change that to something more suitable. My current run of the mill gas water heater is already setup wrong for venting which can be seen in the pic of the header. This whole venting thing has me worried.

I don't want to get to crazy here with the water heater but I also don't want to overlook something that I will regret. If the economics of it look good I will do it. I am hoping I won't have to wait 25 years for a payback.

Steamhead (in transit)

That unsightly monster

in the living room would look stunning with the proper paint job. But if you want to compare the rooms' heat losses with the radiation they now have, you can download the free Slant/Fin calc program. If you still use dial-up, better order the CD instead- no sense in waiting a week for the download to complete. Each square foot of radiation gives off 240 BTU per hour.

As long as those two radiators are heating properly and not banging, the piping is probably OK.

I won't dignify the "measure one floor and add 12%" method of measurement with any further comment.

In general, a stainless-steel flue liner can handle either oil or gas. But a cheap aluminum one is only good for gas. The labor to install the liner is the same in both cases, so go with the one that can handle anything. The water heater can usually be vented into the new liner.

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stamato_5

Here is more info. Looks like you guys approve changing radiation. As I said before it was being frowned upon when I brought it up. I had done a heat loss for my house last year but really did not know what to do with it. Shortly after I had purchased my house I was fishing for info and I came across an old family owned oil service shop in Somerville
NJ. The man who should probably be retired and enjoying the fruits of his work was still their and obviously he loved his work. Anyway we talked for over an hour and as I was leaving he said. "I am just doing some cleaning and there are some books you should take". We went out to the curb there were some old boxes of books. I realy didn't know what he had handed me. But after looking at it I realized what he gave me. One of the books was from I=B=R and explained everything involved with calculating a heat loss on your home. It included in it form 1502 copyright 1960 by the Institute of Boiler and Radiator Manufactureres, 608 Fifth Ave., New York 20, New York.

I had tried to scan it when I had posted my pics but my scanner is a POS ("piece of ....."), I will just enter the numbers for each room.

There are 12 different items that the charts wants filled in for each room.

Then there are factors for each one based on the type of material.

Most important is 11 and 12 which is the heat loss in BTU and the amount of radiation I have in that room.

1-Room

2-Room Dimensions

3-Length of Exposed Wall

4-Gross Wall Area Sq Ft

5-Glass Area Sq Ft

6-Net Wall Area Sq Ft............../* Factor= .53 old dbl hng /storms

7-Ceiling Area Sq Ft................./* Factor= .07

8-Floor Area Sq Ft.................../* Factor= a).02 b).01 (two dif materials)

9-Room Vol For Infiltration......../*Factors= a).018 b).027 c).012

10-Total BTU/HR AT 70 degree Temp Difference

11-Total BTU/HR At Design temp Difference = 0 so line 10= Line 11

12-Heat distribution units

Some rooms had different factors based on things like type of materials. These are E values I think which are inverse of R values.

You basicaly get the BTU for each line comparing the area and factor on a chart from that old book.


1:Kitchen 2:H=8'6" L=14 W=12'6" 4:244 5:31=1200btu 6:213b=1200btu 7:53=300btu 8:53a&101b=100btu 9:1318a=1700btu


11:5500btu loss...............12:7560btu radiator

1:Dining Room 2:H=8'6" L=12'6" W=12 3:24 4:204 5:28=1000btu 6:176a=2800btu 7:none 8:none 9:1275a=1600btu

11:5400btu loss...................7560btu radiator

1:Living Room 2:H=8'6" L=21' W=12'6" 3:46 4:392 5:60=2200btu 6:352a=5600btu 7:none 8:none

11:12100btu loss............22440btu radiator

This repeats throughout the house I will just list line 11=loss and line 12 radiant for the remainders of the rooms

South East bedroom: 11:3300btu loss..........12:4320btu radiator

North East Bedroom: 11:6100btu loss..........12:7560btu radiator

North West Bedroom: 11:4900btu loss..........12:6480btu radiator

Bathroom 11:2500btu loss.............12:3240btu radiator

hallway: 11:1100btu loss..............12:no radiator

attic: 9900btu loss...............12:5400btu radiator

basement (above grade) 11:7200btu loss.........12:no radiator

basement (below grade) 11:2200btu loss.........12:no radiator

Toatal House loss: 68300BTU = 284 ft sq of steam

Total Radiation: 64560 BTU = 269 ft sq of steam (This number does not account for any piping only radiators)

To me the living room and attic look out of whack. I am also concerned that I am below the total loss of the house. Keep in mind though that I am getting cellulose blown in and everything tightened up. I would have to assume the loss will decrease. But I am like a deer in the headlights. I have no idea if what I have calculated is reliable. My energy auditor made the comment without looking at the worksheet that I probably did not calculate infiltration. He took a copy with him but I have not had a chance to go over it with him. Seems everyone is way too busy. Does anyone even use this chart these days? So I am worried that I may get crazy and end up with too little radiation for the house, or that I could unbalance it.

Steamhead (in transit)

Looks like the only rad

that's grossly oversized is the living room. Does that rad also serve the front door area and stairway to the second floor? If not, you could install a smaller one but don't go below the heat loss you just calced. This way it will still be in proportion to the rest of the system.

The attic rad might be OK depending on how much heat rises into that space from below.

"Steamhead"

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stamato_5

Yes it serves the front door and the stairs. Would you rely these calculations to make yur decisions? I feel that I am not quaified. All I did was grab an antique book out of the trash and plug in numbers with out any real prior knowledge. I did try my best to be accurate but what I am trying to do is not being confirmed as a logical way to go outside this message board. Are you familiar with this old form I used? There was a whole I=B=R manual (booklet) that revolved around completing the form.

Thank you for being so willing to review this. Believe me.. what I get in advice here will most likely be what I do.

Steamhead (in transit)

OK- that's probably why it's bigger

they expected more air changes there, as well as warmed air rising to the second floor and/or attic. I'd say you're good to go, the calcs follow the existing radiation fairly closely.

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stamato_5

Should I recalculate my heat loss with new variables based on what it will be once insulated with the cellulose? I would geuss it would push the number down even further. I get the feeling there may be a lower limit on how small I should go. I do have a source for radiators so I could change them out if it turned out what I have is too big. Is it advisable to keep going with this?

Steamhead (in transit)

Sure, why not?

it will give you a "what if" scenario to work with- if there's a big difference you may want to insulate first....

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Stamato_9

how do I make the right choice

Ok now that I have all my calculations I don't know what to do. Obviously the dead men put in big system to handle the old leaky houses. So I have started the process to have the house tightened up so the heat loss goes way down. My delima now is that after calculating the heat loss I am unsure if we can downfire the G8 to meat the load.

I have a bunch of the "Burnham Radiant" which you can see in the picture in this thread (kitch.jpg). Any comments on taking out some of the sections to get the load to more closely match my new calculation. I am afraid I would just ruin them if I tried to take them apart.

Also does anyone know the true low limit for down firing the G8.

Here are my numbers after calculating with all the insulation improvements.

Kitchen: before: 5500 after: 5500 / radiator: 7560

Dining Room: Before: 5400 After: 3200 / radiator: 7560

Living Room: before: 12100 after: 7800 / radiator: 22440

S.E. Bedroom: before: 3300 after: 1570 / radiator:4320

N.E. Bedroom: before: 6100 After: 3420 / radiator:7560

N.W. Bedroom: before: 4900 After: 2700 / radiator:6480

Bathroom: before: 2500 after: 1035 / radiator:3240

Hallway: before: 1100 after: 890

Attic: before: 9900 after: 8045 / radiator:5400

Basement: before: 17500 after: 18400

Total before: 68300 Total after: 46080

Total radiation from just the radiators is: 241.5'sq or 57840 BTU

You can see that each radiator is now way too big.


Mr. Secor of Palmer reviewed it and came up with even less. I had fudged a couple numbers and or made mistakes.

Anyway the big question is how low can it go (the G8) and still make steam.

Do I go through the cost or reworking the connections to fit different radiators?

Do I try to control the existing with expensive thermal vents?

Do I take apart the radiators I have?

Do I buy a smaller boiler to match the smaller load if the G8 can't get that low?

Will a G8 cycle properly if I just size it to the radiation I have with such a small heat loss?

What do I do in this situation?

Am I crazy here... Am I going to far... Am I splitting hairs.. I am even starting believe I getting nuts looking at these numbers.

steveex

Stamato you are hired, be at my shop at 7-30 am sharp.

stamato_5

Here is what I have and need

Doesn't look like I can rearrange them either as the sizes don't match up well.

Ratiators

EXISTING

LocationS.......Sec.....SQFT....BTU.....Type

Kitchen...........14......31.5....7560....Recessed

Dining Room....9.......31.5....7560....5 Tube

Living Room.....22......66......1584....3 column

S.E. Bedroom....8.......18......4320....Recessed

N.E. Bedroom...14......31.5....7560....Recessed

N.W. Bedroom..12......27......6480....Recessed

Bathroom.........6.......13.5....3240....Recessed

Attic.................6.......22.5....5400....3 Column



Need (Based on Calculated Heat Loss)

Location........Sec.....SQFT....BTU.....Type

Kitchen...........10......23......5500....Recessed........20"

Dining Room.....9......31.5....7560

Living Room..............32.5....7800

S.E. Bedroom....3.......6.54....1570....Recessed........20"

N.E. Bedroom.....7......14.25...3420....Recessed........20"

N.W. Bedroom...........5.......11.25...2700....Recessed........20"

Bathroom..........2.......4.35....1035....Recessed........20"

Bathroom+20%..3.....5.175...1242....Recessed........20"

Attic.................33.5....8045

Steamhead (in transit)

EDR totals

Existing: 241.5

Calced: 162.2

I've never down-fired a G-8 that low. But, you could always hook up an indirect water heater to a G-8 to use the extra capacity.......

I wouldn't try to take your rads apart unless you have a source of replacement push nipples. I'd go ahead and install the 3-section G-8 and downsize the rads one by one, and maybe do the indirect too.



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