New Gas Steam Boiler

Boston_2

The System is single pipe steam. We just had the wet returns replace last year, so i hope that won't be an issue any more. The plumber who did the installation is a family friend who has a very well know plumbing out fit. I am surprised to hear that it may not be do correctly. The only additional thing he is doing is adding a aluminum liner in my chimney.

We had all the vents on the radiators changed about a year and a half ago with adjustable vents. There are no vents on the mains downstairs. We have been told by every professional (including Ask This Old House) that main vents wouldn't do much because the mains are very short.

Is it the opinion of this forum that i will have problems heating my house now?

Boston_2

New Gas Steam Boiler

Hello,

We are currently in the process of converting our Oil Steam boiler to a new gas steam boiler. I am concerned about some of the things the plumber is doing. .

1) Is it ok to use copper piping from the steam boiler to tie into the mains? I though I read that you need to always use black steel for steam boilers? It doesn’t look right to me, but i could be wrong.
2) Can a natural vent Independence boiler be converted to a PV boiler? The inspector is now telling us we need to line our chimney.

Steamhead (in transit)

Answers

1- NO copper on steam pipes! Burnham says right in the boiler manual that they disapprove of this.

2- Maybe. You'd have to check with Burnham. But can you easily vent this thing at least a foot above the highest recorded snow accumulation in your area? If not, get a new stainless-steel chimney liner that can handle any fuel, to future-proof the job.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Boston_2

Steamhead,

The only reference I could find in the installation manual is as follows:

Before using copper for steam piping, consider the following characteristics of copper piping:

1) high coefficient of thermal expansion can induce mechanical stresses and cause
expansion/contraction noises if not accounted for in the piping system design and installation,
2) high heat transfer rate (heat loss) of uninsulated copper piping must be included in the
normal piping and pickup factors used to size the boiler,
3) soldering or brazing pastes and fluxes that end up in the system can cause poor heat transfer,
surging, an unsteady water line and wet steam if not thoroughly removed during the boil out
procedure and,
4) galvanic corrosion of the adjoining metal may occur due to dissimilar metals in certain water
chemistries if dielectric unions are not used.

Does this mean that copper can be used but must be installed and insulated properly?

Steamhead (in transit)

Those are all

good reasons not to use copper. The "high coefficient of thermal expansion can induce mechanical stresses" they're talking about can actually break the soldered joints. Why take the chance?

A reputable installer will not use copper on steam pipes.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Bruce M_2

Post Pictures

It is not good practice to install copper pipes for near boiler piping on a steam boiler but it is often done by installers in order to save time and/or money. Some manufacturers are afraid to emphatically state this in their installation manuals because they do not want to offend and alienate installers which in turn could jeopardize future sales. Post a few pictures here so that the steam experts can offer suggestions.

Boston_2

New Gas Steam Boiler

Pictures Attached,
Let me know what you guys think... Do i see trouble in my future?

tim smith

Here is how I would say it

Definately not the way I would do it or anyone else I know who commonly works on steam boilers and piping.

Mad Dog_2

I've seen worse and soldering not too sloppy........BUT

It should be repiped in black pipe with steam fittings - end of story....no, I don't think it can be "easily" retreofitted to PV. The PV has a sealed collector box...more complex wiring......leave the boiler and get a ss liner. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

nicholas bonham-carter

evil copper steam main

since there are always some installers who insist on using copper piping for steam mains why not recognise this alternative method with instructions specifically for copper piping.because of the expansion-contraction issue these proposed new manufacturers specs for copper piping could well be more complicated to install thus preventing the knuckleheads from doing the wrong thing for the right person!--nbc

nicholas bonham-carter

evil copper steam main

since there are always some installers who insist on using copper piping for steam mains why not recognise this alternative method with instructions specifically for copper piping.because of the expansion-contraction issue these proposed new manufacturers specs for copper piping could well be more complicated to install thus preventing the knuckleheads from doing the wrong thing for the right person!--nbc

bill_97

Copper would not be our first choice

With the price of the pipe and fittings , I'm shocked your contractor is using it .

But as far as I know , no manufacturer specifically rules out using copper on any part of a steam heating system . Like others said , the soldered joints are the weak link . But I've come across many steamers with copper headers that have been leak free for decades . I think proper cleaning of the fittings and using a strong solder is the key .

Here's 2 pics - the first is a copper header boiler that's been leak free for 30 or 40 years . The 2nd is a job we installed where they ran copper right to the rads . We had no choice but to connect to them the the same way .

Mitch_6

Check the manual that comes with the boiler

tough to tell from the photo's but the header may be to small. The mfg also may have wanted both tappings used it depends. Form experience after market power venters are doable on this boiler but a major pain, especially if a water heater is attached to the system any power outage and you loose hot water.

The owners manual tells exactly how to install and do not vary. Thought I saw a bull head at the top of the photo but tough to tell.

The under ground wet returns could be an issue, they should be flushed. I would re run them above ground if possible and if equipped with an auto feeder I would have one that shows the amount of water used. About the only thing that can be copper is a wet return all else should be steel.

As a side question how did you choose this contractor for your job.

Mitch S.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead (in transit)

Leaving aside the copper vs steel issue

I suspect your system is a two pipe steam system. If so, how is the air vented from your system? Air must be allowed to vent from your system's pipes and heating units every cycle. This is VERY important.

I am sorry to say that the fellow who installed your boiler has what appears to be a very limited understanding of steam system operations.

Also, I second what Mitch S. says regrading the underground returns.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead (in transit)

We take the view

That it is difficult to vent a steam system too much. The faster the air gets out of a system, the faster the steam can move in and heat your home.

It is interesting that the wet returns appear to be done all in steel, with a copper-to-steel connection below the waterline to boot, and the header is done in copper.

That being said, 'will this system work?' you ask? Most likely, it will. Steam is very robust. Will it work well and have a long useful life? This is another question.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

any good plumbing outfits

Any good plumbing outfits will know NOT to pipe a steam boiler header system with copper pipe/fittings

Mitch_6

The return going into the cement from the photo appear

to be original. Only the near boiler return piping appears new. I would spend the extra money on a stainless liner. In most cases people forget to inspect them, stainless should last for life, aluminum can fail in ten years. You may want to send the photo's to Burnham tech support and see what they say.

Mitch S.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, that's one reason

I dropped my subscription to This Old House. No one at that magazine knows anything about steam, and they don't seem to want to know. Old-House Journal is much, much better- they would rather restore old houses rather than try to turn them into new houses, and they've even had Dan write articles for them.

Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and we'll tell you what vents you need.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Boston_2

Steam Mains

TOH came to our house to see if they could make a show out of our problem, but I don’t think they were able to figure out what the issue was, so I never heard back from them. I wasn’t impressed, which was sad, because we grew up watching them on TV. It turns out there was a crack in the boiler so all the steam was going up the chimney.

The 3” main goes in two directions (there is a tee where the boiler ties into the main pipe see pics), 8 ft in one direction and 1.5 ft in the other.

Update,

The gas company made the final connection last night and we fired up the boiler. It worked great, in that,it used to take 30 min to start getting steam upstairs, it did it in less then 10. However, you all were right about 1 thing… two connections on the copper fittings started to leak. Not a good sign! Unfortunately, we are now completely out of money so we will have to have them fix what’s there.

Unknown

out of money?

Out of money? The copper pipes should be replaced without charges as they should know better NOT to piped with copper in first place... I'm biting my tonuge about Toh...

Mitch_6

The installer should make it right

Again get a Burnham rep out or see if them you can sent them photo's. See what they say and go from there.

You should also see how the system runs for long periods of time in the winter.

Mitch S.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead (in transit)

What happens

at the ends of those 3-inch mains?

Do all the radiator takeoffs come off the 3-inch mains, or are there smaller sub-mains that then feed the radiator takeoffs?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Boston_2

Steam Mains

Yes, at the ends of the larger mains, the pipes reduce down and head in different directions. It appears that each radiator has its own pipe. At the bottom of each union, there is a much smaller pipe (1”) that tie into two main wet returns that return to the boiler. Some steam lines head upstairs to the second floor while others go to the radiators on the first floor

Boston_2

Boston_2

Boston_2

Yes, at the ends of the larger mains, the pipes reduce down and head in different directions. It appears that each radiator has its own pipe. At the bottom of each union, there is a much smaller pipe (1”) that tie into two main wet returns that return to the boiler. Some steam lines head upstairs to the second floor while others go to the radiators on the first floor

Boston_2

YES

At the ends of the larger mains, the pipes split off and reduce down (1.5" or 2") and head in different directions. It appears that each radiator has its own pipe. At the bottom of each union (heading upstairs), there is a much smaller pipe (1”) that head down and tie into two main wet returns that return to the boiler. Some steam lines head upstairs to the second floor while others go to the radiators on the first floor.

Steamhead (in transit)

Interesting

This is probably a "relief" system if all the radiator risers are individually drained into the wet return. That might be what confused the TOH guys.

If you could maybe do a sketch of the system piping that runs thru the basement, showing pipe lengths and sizes, and post it here, we could advise you better. Your system should have main vents, but a sketch would show us where best to put them.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Boston_2

Boston_2

Crude Sketch