Who do I listen to?

mtfallsmikey

Here in the upper Commonwealth of Va. with a lot of Karst/limestone soil, localities are banning usage of them for geo. Just read yesterday that the Commonwealth is lifting all electrical utility price caps at the end of the year.

TONY_22

What do I go with?

My husband JP and I are debating the different type systems out there and whether or not to go with ground source heating, in-floor, a Munchkin or whatever?

We will have natural gas and definitely in floor in the basement. Someone gave my husband a quote for a Munchkin for the in floor and two water water heaters for our hot water needs. I thought that could be done by the Munchkin alone?

I am the office manager for an hvac firm but we don't do any in-floor (not much help here)

Any suggestions??? Any good proven heat pump systems???

My husband and I don't seem to agree on any of this!

Thanks in advance,

Nicole

Weezbo

Squeeze the BTU/H out of good ole mr Sun...

The government has nt found a way to regulate That Thank Gawd. *~/:)

the stock market wont be able to raid your harvest and the oil countries wont be micro managing you into slavery near as quick as the rest of the population...

just a thought..

*~/:)

don_185

the one

the one that can back it up with the math.

I would think wall or ceiling panel would be a great match for geo.Picking and trying to find the right floor covering
for a floor panel with geo can be a tuff job.

what cheaper in your area..electric,gas,or oil?

Derheatmeister

Munchkin...

Yes the "Munchkin" should be able to handle both the heat and the Domestic hot water needs, as for the need for two waterheaters versus one ,why? Got lots of Bathrooms?

I personally Serviced/Rebuild some munchkins and do not install the Munchkins...

My choice of Boilers are: Viessmanns Vitodens 200,Triangle Tubes Prestige and Baxi lunas, they all have a good track record are easy to work on,are also made of Stainless, and the parts/support are readily available in my area.

Oh yes ,If you have a good solar exposure you may consider using a dual coil tank (Waterheater),you may (If the system is planned and installed correctly) be able to lower your energy bills by an additional 25% to 30%

Rich Kontny_3

Many Choices

Nicole,

This is where DIYs can get in trouble, everyone (especially today) is trying to save money and doing so many times by cheapening up on infrastructure items (such as boilers,heating systems,cooling systems etc) At the same time they are looking at granite tops,$2,000.00 faucets etc. (superficial items)

Build (I assume this is a new home? or old?) with the most reliable,durable and most fuel efficient methods you can. Get the better quality windows,doors,insulation and create a very tight building envelope. Next look into cost effectiveness,payback and service (all high tech and fuel efficient equipment need at least annual and preferably twice yearly tune-ups and maintenance by trained professionals. There are many ground source systems making comebacks as fuel costs rise yet your geographic location limits payback in the same way solar installs do.

You are smart to do your homework as there are many different options and many different opinions. I would suggest working with a reputable professional from your area and ask if you and your husband can do some of the grunt work.

So many people think in-floor is just a simple matter of throwing tubing in the floor and living happily ever after. If you have any experience on this site you will read about countless nightmares (over length loops, over or under sized pumps,non barrier tubing (a rust causing big nightmare) poor controls, bad heatsource choices, and worst of all poor advice from very fringe heating/cooling
players (those who think they are HVAC contractors yet have very limited knowledge of a very complex industry)

You certainly came to the right site, but ideally you should get at the very least professional design and then if your HVAC people can't help you with materials and labor saving ideas use a contractor that does this kind of work.

Some of the best in the industry host and contribute to this website.

Good luck I hope some of the others chime in for you!

Rich K.

Pinball

four choices to make

Great question Nicole!

First of all, before you and your hubby head to divorce court,
you need to understand a few things. Your question is actually four questions in one. A heating system consists of three distinct parts. #1 the distribution system, IE:radiant in floor, convective hot water baseboard, or warm air. #2 the fuel source. IE: gas, oil, electric,or solar. And #3 is the heat source. IE: Groundsource heat pump. A conventional boiler (fueled by either gas or oil) A mod/con gas boiler (Munchkin, Prestige, Baxi, Buderus GB,and others) or electric.
Now one more thing into the mix is control systems. you can go from mild to wild with these. dependant on your other choices.

lets start with the distribution system. Infloor radiant systems, are generally the most comfortable systems on the planet (provided they are designed and installed correctly).They are silent and the distribution is even throughout the home. Since they use low water temperatures, they are also generally the most efficent. They can however, be a little more expensive to install. (your control options are almost endless with these). As well as your zoning possibilities.

Warm air systems are generally less expensive to install. However, since moving air across the body has a natural cooling effect,(requiring higher temps to compensate. And Air is a poor conductor of heat,(that's how insulation works). They are also the least comfortable and least effecient systems as well. They do however, give you the ability to include A/C in your system. Your zoning potential is limited as well, and can increase the costs considerably, doing so.

Convective hot water, baseboard radiation,uses higher temperature water than radiant and falls somewhere in the middle on comfort,(no fan to blow that air) They do however still use Air as a heat conveyance). Your zoning potential is much better. (Easier to run pipes than ductwork). You do, however have to deal with that "tin enclosure" wrapped around your rooms. more expensive to install than warm air but still a little less than radiant. Your boiler and fuel choices can effect the overall effeciency of this system.


Now the fuel source. They are usually independant of the distribution system and can work with any of them. natural gas, oil, propane, electric, or solar. This is a matter of choice and availability in your area. Keep in mind, with these, a mod/con boilers (munchkin,Baxi, etc.) can only use natural or propane gas.

Next is the heat source. Ground source heat pumps are run on electric. They produce low temperature water,(below 140*) and are a PERFECT MATCH for radiant systems.And work very well with air+A/C systems. They are the most effecient A/C systems on the market today. They are limited in their output of heat, so climate is a consideration as a stand alone systems in some areas. They work VERY WELL however in conjunction with a mod/con boiler.

A conventional boiler, either powered by Gas or oil is, usually less expensive to buy, but more costly to operate. It typically gets in the mid 80% range as far as effeciency is concerned. It can be used on most any system. baseboard, radiant,or warm air(using an air handler).

A modulating/condensing gas boiler or MOD/CON for short, is the most effecient hot water boiler type on the market today. It produces only the heat that is needed at any given time. At effeciency ratings that can be in the mid to high 90% range! It can be used to work as a stand-alone boiler, and (if designed and installed properly with an indirect water heater) can produce as much domestic hot water as you need.

Since electric is very expensive in my area (northeast)I'm not as familier with electric boilers or furnaces.

Ultimatly, all of these systems and sub-systems come down to a few things. Not the least of which is the proper design, installation, and service of the company doing the work in your area. A proper heat loss calculation and evaluation of your home is a MUST! For any of them to work correctly and at the highest possible effeciency.
Your budget will then determine, how much "Bang for the Buck" you can get. DO your homework and good luck.

Al

Larry Weingarten

After Al...

... gave such a thorough answer, this may only be my one cent, but you might want to look at the Phoenix solar by HTP. Also, give a thought to radiant in the walls or ceiling. There are advantages with surface temperature, no "insulation" (carpet and pad) and quicker response.

Do more than you think necessary to button up the place first. Air sealing and insulation should be "enough" for years into the future. Once it's snug, do a heat loss so you can accurately size things.

Yours, Larry

TONY_22

Nicole where are you from (what climate)

Nicole,

Heat loads and cooling loads are very different for different regions of the country. If you tell us a general area where you live we will be able to help you a little more and possibly steer you in a better direction.

No need to be specific just the general area of a state or province.This site has contributors from all over the country and even some foreign input.


Rich

TONY_22

Wow!

I truly am a babe in the woods when it comes to this!. We live east about 35 miles NE of Madison,WI.

So are you saying solar and ground source systems are not going to work here?

We really don't have many well versed in-floor contractors by us so I may have to look in Madison. Won't they be more expensive because of travel etc.?

Oh well it's off to church perhaps I will get some guidance there.

You guys are great by the way. My husband is very techie (Verizon guy) so he thinks he is on top off all of this.(NOT)

Thx Nicole

Unknown

The wells...

always seem to be the deal killer on the ground source. We get a lot of leads on ground source but very few sales. The reason? The wells, always the wells... They are not cheap! Not in CT anyways. Listen to these guys and go with the mod con. I just went with a Munchkin because when push came to shove it was the only one that would work in the application. After reading the "testimonial" a few posts back, I'm worrying. LOL... Fortunately this supplier has always been good on the support end.

Steve Ebels_3

Pinball

Nice well thought out answer. If I may, I'd like to add one thing to your statement regarding the GSHP/radiant combo.

You said, "Ground source heat pumps are run on electric. They produce low temperature water,(below 140*) and are a PERFECT MATCH for radiant systems."

This is very true, however the radiant system must be a low temperature design due to the 130-140* limit of a GSHP. There are lot's of installers that consider pex under a floor running at 150-170* a radiant system. I suppose it is but temperature demand in that range is definitely not a good match for a GSHP. I just interviewed with a homeowner doing that very thing in a new full log home no less. He had purchased a GSHP (Water Furnace) from another contractor and had all the pex slung underneath the 2" thick wood floor. He wanted help with the ground loops (pond loops in this case)and his indoor piping. Told him thanks but no thanks and walked out the door.

Steve Ebels_3

Nicole

You are right across Lake Michigan from me so let's assume that fuel prices are roughly the same there as here and crunch a few numbers to give you an idea of operating costs.

Fuel oil is currently $4.30 per gallon

Propane is being quoted for around $2.70 around here.

A KWH of electricity costs $.108

And last but not least a full cord of wood is $105 delivered in 8' lengths.

You can get on the EIA.gov website and use this fuel cost calculator to crunch the numbers to see you actual cost per million btu's. The program is an excel spreadsheet and it allows you to input the efficiency of the appliance.

Using the raw costs I listed above and high efficiency's for each fuel type the numbers look like this.

Fuel oil per MMbtu $35.63

Propane per MMbtu $32.73

Electricity/GSHP per MMtbu $8.33

Wood per MMbtu $6.67

With solar your fuel cost is zero but it will not carry your heating load. Best use for that is domestic hot water.

www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

Pinball

Thanks for pointing that out Steve

I couldn't agree with you more! I too have seen some pretty bad installs. Unfortunatly, there are way too many people who think, "Hey, how hard can it be?" "It's just tube in the floor." "anyone can do it!" That is until the outside temps. drop into the teens, and the house gets cold!
I guess I didn't stress enough, that If it's going to be Radiant, it MUST be designed and installed by an EXPERIENCED Professional. Not just some one with a sign on the side of a truck.

There is a lot of sales hype in the GSHP business, especially with the price of fuel these days. One such line I hear alot is "I want to get off fossil fuels." That may be true in some locations, but where I live, most of the electric is produced by oil, coal or gas! Your still on fossil fuel, just burning it elsewhere.

There is a place for everything, however, Not every place is for everything. GSHP are a great invention. They are perfect for some applications. NOT ALL. Just as Radiant is wonderful as well. But it has to be done right to give the comfort, effeciency and reliability that customers pay for and deserve. To do that, the system must be DESIGNED, and installed correctly, including, matching the right distribution type (Quick-Trac, Joist Trac, slab on grade, or staple up) to the proper heat source.(GSHP, mod/con,solar,or electric).Or a combination of the above. I would also like to point out, that the type of construction of the building plays a role in this design as well. It is also the moral obligation(and good business) of the contractor, to try and design the most comfortable system they can within the customer's budget. Now, I DON'T MEAN, give them something for nothing. Just give a champain system with a champain budget. And a beer bottle system on a beer bottle budget. Be honest! Unfortunatly, a lot of contractors are only interested in the sale. It is up to the buyer to be educated and aware of what their getting. And, the best place to start is RIGHT HERE!

Like I said before,"Good luck"
Al

Rollie Peck_3

New heating system

I live in Madison Wisconsin and can highly recommend E & W Heating and Air Conditioning Company in Madison. They helped me do a major upgrade to my hydronic heating system several years ago. They provided the boiler and other major parts, the expertise, the permits, the startup testing and now the annual inspections. I did the piping and electrical wiring because I had experience in those fields. This website provided a ton of great information.

If for some reason they don't work out for you, check the website for the Midwest Renewable Energy Association located near Stevens Point Wisconsin. www.the-mrea.org. They list a number of contractors in the central Wisconsin area in their newsletter.

My heating system upgrade experience showed me that a good contractor is the best investment you can make in your new heating system. In the long run, you will end up with a safer, more comfortable, more trouble free and more economical heating system.

Rollie Peck

Homeowner

TONY_22

Not the time

To ask my husband if he would like to chop wood to save money. We are up to our eyeballs in this construction thing and know we will get through it, yet the economy and all makes us a little nervous. Please don't send anything to the e-mail address listed above as old tight wad made us go with one laptop until we finish the house.

Thx I will have to edit out the Verizon comment as he has worked there for years. Also we want to live in the new house as a couple!

TONY_22

Really

Appreciate the time you guys took to share youe expertise. I will visit again to let you know what we used and how we did the install.

Nicloe

Don Regan

Fond du Lac, WI

Hi Nicole,

I live near Fond du Lac, WI. I would be glad to help.