What companies stand behind their products?

Unknown

Good info to have. :)

Unknown

I'm a little disturbed,,.

but you knew that.

Bryant, been selling their stuff for years. I had a condenser I bought in '05. Turned out half the bldg was 3 phase and the other half single phase. I bought a 3 phase for the single phase half. The customer decided, eh, keep it, we have another place we'd like to use it. So we put it in storage. Never been unsealed. Last week I take it out and install it. Running fine when I left. I get a call 3 days later, go back, the compressor is seized. There is no compressor in Hartford. The closest is at the factory in Tenn. I can either wait 5 days or pay $400 to have it overnighted. We wait the 5 days. I install it. Running fine, been running ever since. Perfect superheat, perfect subcooling.

So then I get another call. An "Evolution" series 4 ton split I installed 8 months ago is not cooling. I go there. The condenser fan is running,,, backwards! WTH? Ring it out, seems ok but runs backwards. Call my supplier. Well, the closest condenser fan motor is at, you guessed it, the plant in Tenn and I can either wait 5 days or pay $108 Shipping to have it overnighted. The customer agrees to split the shipping but I am NOT a happy camper so OK, now I'm gettin' hot. I wring out every **** I can find and leave it at if things don't improve quickly I'll be shopping for another brand to represent.

That was Friday, meanwhile, I gotta call tech support to get the 4 hours labor I was expecting for the warrantee compressor job authorized. I do that today. I get a call back, it's 31 days past the purchase date, I get NO labor for this job. I say, "But it's a new install, the seal on that unit wasn't broken until a week ago." Nope, too bleepin' bad for me, have a nice day. Suddenly, things don't go by start up date anymore? Now they're using purchase date?

Naturally, I'm even hotter now. So the question is, can any of you recommend a brand that will provide me with better than this? Who out there now is still supporting their customers properly? Who is still standing behind their product these days? I'm thinking York, anyone have any issues with them? Lennox seems to be very supportive but I've always felt their controls got a little too involved. Then there's Trane but the American Standard deal worries me. They're in transition themselves. This applies to the boiler side too. I like crown, they've always done me right. Talk to me...

The saddest part of all. I own a little UTC stock, that's one of the reasons I sell Bryant. *Sigh*

Thanks!

Bob Bona_4

that is exactly

why I will not, ever, use, install, or recommend Carrier to even my worst enemy. Absolutely horrific factory support, the most disinterested, surly, and unfriendly "service" rep I have ever dealt with. You are a nobody in a call center in India with a case number. The local parts distributor is constantly out of stock, they instantly put you on hold and never seem to pick back up, and the is a neverending stream of damaged equipment right out of the box from the warehouse (of course, it's concealed damage..)

Going through all this 5 years ago, with numerous disregarded phone calls about my dissatisfaction made me pull the plug cold. Fortunately, at the same time, a local wholesaler took on A/S, which I like a lot. High quality stuff. Perfect? no one is, but everything I hated about Carrier, A/S is the opposite.

If you can get A/S, go for it. I reluctantly use Ruud as my second line.

eluv8

standing by products

I used to sell a/c equipment for a while. I liked the bryant carrier product but we had a ton of problems with the evolution controls and zoning packages. Had bryant techs out and nobody seemed capable of fixing the problems we were having, and of course we were the only ones having the problem. My first choice at the time was Trane. Had very few problems, the problems I did have were with the installations by my installers, and I cant fault Trane for that. My techs blew up several compressors and Trane stood behind them, they basically said it should not have failed even if you overcharged it, thats what makes us Trane. York was my third line and I cant say we ever really had any problems with them either, just didnt seem to be as finished of a package, but they were priced right also.

GW

yea

the story you shared has probably been said a thousand times, with other brands too.

I used a lot of Trane over the years but I've been dissapointed with the local vendor. They don't even have a corporate phone number for service; if the "in house" guy isn't in I'm out of luck.

I have found as I get older, I, more and more, find myself buying from those who give me just 2 cents of respect.

The Lennox sales rep treats me this way, so I like him, and I like spending my money with Lennox. When there's a problem he sucks it up without challenging me.

The local Trane people was an experience for sure: any problem that came up ended with money getting pulled out of my pocket.

The Lennox people are good to deal with in Texas, I've never had a guy give me the attitutude that I so incredibly despise. Any they certainly had the right to, I'm an AC guy who knows the basics but I'm certainly not an old sea dog when it comes to AC.

You don't have a local sales guy to deal with? You're just a pion to Bryant, but to your local rep you better be a "somebody", or you better get another brand fast.

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Maine Doug_74

A carrier saga

In Maine we do not need lots of ac. I had a carrier in my bank building. First August ran OK. Second August smoke was relieved from the start cap. Service replaced the combo cap with two separate ones, said this was a problem. Third August more smoke was relieved from more parts.

Carrier said tough poopies despite the unit having run for only three months.

Unit was placed in parking lot and its attitude adjusted with sledge hammer. Never had a problem with it after that. The Sanyo has worked perfectly since.

I did recommend Carrier to the contractor that screwed up the windows in the sun room.

Unknown

\"I did,,,

recommend Carrier to the contractor that screwed up the windows in the sun room."

Ok, that's just evil, I like it!

Steve Ebels_3

Believe it or not

I have less failures and get better product support from Goodman than I do Carrier. I won't even sell a Carrier furnace to a customer with LP gas. It's nearly a guaranteed secondary HX failure within 5-7 years. AND THEY'RE STILL USING THE SAME DESIGN!!!

Bob Sweet

Don't care for Carrier,

Trane, Lennox or most of the advertizing giants. Not because of the product more so because of the nose in the air atitude they personify.

To me there is not a whole lot of difference in the products manuf. are offering, maybe a TUFF compressor or a control package, etc. but for the most part seen one seen em all.

My supplier is the reason I buy what I buy. It aint price, features, name recognition it is the fact that when there is a problem (legit) they always back me up, cant say enough about what that means for me. Nothing worse than talking to factory support and getting the "this has never happened before or have you read the manual?"


The days of REAL customer support seem to be getting fewer and fewer.

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Unknown

Agreed,,,

Carrier/Bryant used to be better but the last few years they have really gone down the tubes on support. I don't want to call tech support to talk to "Tier 1" who is a message taker and wait for "Tier 2" to call me back when I'm on a tough one that I need to figure out fast. Their story is we call support too often with simple problems. I wrung em out on that one too while I was at it. I got a call from my rep last night telling me he passed it along and they're going to try to do better. Faulty Evolution controls are the spectre I fear most. I just installed another one last week. So far so good on the controls. I have had no issues. Just that "nonreversible" motor turning the wrong way. In some respects it was a relief to find that.

Darin Cook_5

Tech Support

Why is it that I can call any boiler manufacturer and get tech support. With a forced air manufacturer I have to call the "tech" guy at the wholesaler who will then if he does not have a answer to my problem call the forced air company (and he is the only one to do this, the forced folks will not speak with you directly). Now when you are in a basement looking for immediate answers this is what I call completely bogus! I have to agree with Steve E some of the "lesser" brands provide better support and better pricing to boot!







Darin

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Unknown

OK, new question,,,

How about the various payback policy? For instance, If I pay my plumbing supplier by the 10th for last month's supplies, he gives me 1.5% discount which I gratefully accept. If I'm a little late, nobody bothers me, they know I'm good for it. Carrier/Bryant on the other hand will not do that unless I pay 30 days IN ADVANCE for equipment and when my account goes over 30 I have an email in my box. They had this one guy for a while who acted like it was HIS money. I took care of him though, heh heh,,,

How about the others. I mean, Goodman does not have a dedicated outlet here but the major labels do. Do any of the major brand outlets offer discounts?

burnerman_2

sad but true

in the last week or two we installed a trane a/c and a olsen hot air furnace both had problem parts defective fan house in olsen and fan blade in condensor of trane both were sent but not labor or the customers anger but its a new"""" so come on guys give us quality stuff PLEASE royboy

Unknown

Ah, but the saga continues...

So last thing I did yesterday was call my supplier to make sure the overnighted motor was in. Yes, they said, it was. Oh goody. So this a.m. I call the customer, tell them the motr is in and I should be there in a couple hours with it. Then I hop in the truck and drive the 20 miles to Hartford to pick up the motor. What should I find when I get there? No motor. Apparently it was shipped with another order by UPS on the same tracking number. While the tracking number indicates it was delivered, it is no where to be found. So NOW I have to call my customer and tell them THIS whole story. Want to know what he said? "AAAUUUGGGHHHH!!! You have GOT to be kidding!!" Yep, that's what you want to hear from your customer alright... Sigh...

So now they're overnighting ANOTHER motor and wouldn't you know the SOB at the other end wants to charge me freight for it? Fortunately MY counter rep got the regional guy involved and they agreed to eat the freight. A small miracle but still too little too late if you ask me.

GW

pay

yea, I got nottin from the Trane wholesaler, I get 1% on Lennox, and 2% from the P&H local suppliers.

I don't understand your situation with carrier/Bryant. What do you mean advance??? I'm confused because you said "over" 30 in the same sentence.

How long have you been in business? If you're new and spending peanuts, I can see flak getting spewn on you, but when I see stuff happening like what you're describing, I walk. I'm a small guy too, but not a micro-organism with about 400g annual supplier bills

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GW

you're kidding

you need another line to install.

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Unknown

Well,,,

the way it was explained to me, in order to get any discount from Carrier/Bryant I must purchase and pay for the equipment 30 days in advance of delivery. I do not do this, I rarely know 30 days in advance when I'm going to need something. So I buy it with 30 days to pay before they hit me with "Finance Charges" which I believe amount to 18% per year. Or, 1.5% per month. If I go over 30 days on the payback I get hit with the 1.5% and also an immediate nasty type "Delinquency Notice" arrives in my email box the same day. I've been in business 10 years, still a loner, tried to expand and hire a couple years back, couldn't find any employees worth spit so I'm back to being a loner. I've been selling Carrier/Bryant the entire time so it's not like I'm new to them.

Unknown

If only,,,

I was...

Naturally, the wife of the couple is the customer from hell. She's decided that the reason the motor failed is because they sold me a "refurbished unit". Just made that up all by herself. No amount of talking will convince her otherwise, if you know what I mean. We all know the type I'm sure. Couple beers shy of a six pack. Yea, I need this. (rolling eyes now)

Yup, I tried to explain to her that the only thing I could attirbute the failure to would be lightning damage, we've had a LOT of heavy electrical storms through here lately and given the strange way it failed, what else can I assume? Nope, the rest of the state's been under the storm gun for weeks but not her house, "No lightning anywhere near this house. I'll bet it was a refurbished unit." Oy...

Bob Sweet

30 day pay in advance?

Thats a strange way of doing things. Sounds like a supplier issue, what exactly does your supplier do for their mark up? It's as though you are fronting the $$ for equip. and assuming the risk. You should not be taking liability for the equip. and paying their mark up that is their job. Might as well be direct sales.

I'd drop Carrier like a hot potato (and maybe your supplier as well). Go find a manuf. who wants to do business with you.

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GW

yea

Life is too short to deal with birds who show no appreciation.

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GW

chill

we all know the type. She was probably mentally abused in her youth and she must get back at everyone she encounters. She is essentially calling you a liar, but you already knew that.

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Unknown

yup,

that's what I understood the guy to say when I asked about an early pay discount. That was a while ago but I don't see anything that has changed. Sadly, probably the first refrigeration equipment I ever set eyes on 32 years ago said "Carrier" on it and I've concentrated on the stuff ever since. Tough to make a break like that at this stage of the game. That doesn't mean I won't though. Things started going into the crapper when UTC bought them out in the 80's but the last few years they've gotten worse. Used to be you could call the counter and get most technical problems ironed out but then the rule "No tech support from the counter it slows them down" came into effect and so did "Tier 1" etc...

Now I can't get common parts. They were all over how they were working on a spreadsheet for common parts to stock when I went in there today. The only thing that's been saving my @$$ right now is it's been kind of mild. So at least God is working with me on this. LOL...

Unknown

Yep,

yer right...but why's it gotta be that way? LOL...

She brought up an extra package of screws that came with the unit and had no apprent purpose other than to be extras. "Do you remember those extra screws and I asked you if something was left unfinished? Do you think it was a refurbished unit or they pulled a part off of mine to fix somebody elses when it was in the warehouse?" Me, "No ma'am, they don't do that, I tried to get them to do that for me here and they wouldn't." She's not really calling me a liar, she seems to see me as a victim as well but still, she's got herself all fixated on the refurbised thing. Ah well, at least there's people around somewhere who understand my frustration.

mtfallsmikey

Not real good testimonials I'm hearing (geez alert!)

Dad sold A/S (the old iron horse of the A/C industry, some Hushers are still running after 30+ yrs.), Mueller Climatrol,(with rotary compressors!) Moncrief (remember them?), Dunham-Bush (early HV systems), some York. Used to be Goodman was the "builder's model" of choice, increasingly hearing good things about them. I sold Heil for about 12 yrs, got some good training, excellent warranty service,good parts availability. But, support is only as good as the distributor. I'm hearing about Scroll compressors biting the dust early in the newer 410A systems. Good luck to all!..mfm

Unknown

Yes,,,

For all the "less moving parts less likely to fail" talk when the scrolls first came out they sure do seem to be a little less durable. This was an 3 ph '05 scroll that just went on me out of the box and I did another 3 ph 5 ton scroll on a new Carrier rooftop a couple years back. (Not installed by me) The factory at that time told me to put an outdoor t'stat on it so it wouldn't run below 50* ODT, which I did. It's been ok so far, 3rd season now I think. The poor guy who owned the store had just moved in and had signed a lease that made HIM responsible for the bill. Talk about feel bad for a guy but I couldn't do it for free. These are COPELANDS too! I always trusted that name and now I just can't be sure anymore.

In other news,,,Hartford just called, my motor is in,,, again. Dare I dream it to be true? LOL...

Now everybody pray in the denomination of your choice that when I put this thing in it doesn't start and run backwards...

Bruce M_2

Daiken

You might want to look at Daiken products. High quality innovative products used around the world.
www.daikenusa.com

Unknown

Thank you...

I will!

Steamhead (in transit)

It's the Microsoft syndrome

they think they own the market so they think they can do whatever they want. Wait till electricity gets too expensive for people to run A/C in their homes and see how fast these companies go down the toilet.

Tech support in India- I thought only computer companies and ISPs were doing that, but it looks like it's infiltrated our industry too. As others have said, this kind of "support" is totally useless. We should make it a policy to never do business with any company who handles tech support this way.

Darin, boiler companies have less market share, so they generally offer better support to keep customers from going to the dark side- scorched-air.

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Unknown

Update...

So Ok, the motor is installed and turning the right direction. Definite smell of roasted windings coming out of the old one. Yay... but, is it over? not yet. Even though it took them 6 days to "overnight" me a motor they STILL want to charge me for "overnight" freight. My customer now says no way are they paying overnight freight charges on a part that took 6 days to arrive. My poor outside sales rep is going to develop a nervoud tic every time he hears my voice pretty soon. meanwhile, I recall FW Webb in this area has recently gotten into York. FW here has always provided me with excellent service AND that discount we were talking about. Bears investigation I think.

Unknown

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Unknown

\"But a guy

flying around in a costome shooting the sun god does not do much for me"

yea, I ain't too crazy about him myself. LOL...

Keith_8

Trane

Connecticut Trane has been great!

Tom Pisano my inside sales guy jumps thru hoops.

Without getting into specifics, he gets the picture, he understands the business, how to deal with contractors and what we are up against. Never disapointed.

Tom understands the products he sells.

Ready for this? He anticipates problems down the road. Not necesarilly problems with his product but integration or sequence of operation issues that don't make sense. How about that? A sales guy who knows what he is selling.

Steve Palmer, service manager for CT. Trane Service has been there for me too. Recently walked us thru some issues with a 300 ton chiller that is misbehaving. In describing what going on he spends the time(multiple phone calls over a week) to walk us thru some of his trouble shooting tips.

Can you tell I'm a happy dude dealing with Trane?

Never gave the 10 day discount much thought when dealing with the AC side of the business. We do take advantage of the discount on the heating side. Food for thought.

Keith

Bruce M_2

More Infor for MPF

Here is sosmething that might interest you; becoming a dealer in the Daikin Dealer Alliance. They make sizes up to 40 tons and they require training at no cost to you. That should show you their commitment to quality.
http://www.daikinac.com/dnaprogram/index.asp

Unknown

Ready for more \"laughs\" ?

So as a part of my becoming a BRYANT "DEALER" I got a postcard mailing of 2000 cards. I picked the one that mentions "REBATE UP TO $1100", the undeliverable ones started showing up yesterday, June 30th. Today, July 1st I start the rebate form for the install I just did and in the process discover, if you can believe this, the window on the rebate closed yesterday. That's right, the rebate that I JUST OFFERED in the mailing over the last few days IS OVER. So I call, yup, my regional rep, "Oh, that will start up again in the fall." Fat lotta good it does me now. Well, at least I'll get to count how many out of 2000 cards I have to explain all this to now. As if they haven't made me look and feel like enough of an **** already. Sigh...

eluv8

Rebates

I feel for you, ask if you can change the date on some of your installs and slide a few through. Trane let me do that on several installs that were close to the closing date. Reps make all the diffrence when it comes to equipment from what I have seen.

Unknown

Yea,

he said I could fudge some dates but geez, talk about a comedy of errors...

Steve Ebels_3

To answer the original question...........

In a word......Viessmann

In another word.......Buderus


I wish that every company I dealt with behaved like those two when an issue arises, which BTW is not very bloomin' often. The Euro's seem to have a different mindset when it comes to warranty and product support. On paper, the warranties they offer pale in comparison to the length of a warranty on similar American product but to the Euro's, the warranty doesn't seem to end on a specific date. They stand behind their product even after the warranty has "expired" simply because it's what they do. If they determine that something they made has a defect that showed up beyond the specified time period, they take care of it. Just like Toyota is doing right now with the rusted frame issue on the Tacoma pickup. Technical support from those two companies sets the standard that every manufacturer should seek to attain. They know their product inside and out and have english speaking people that can talk you through most anything. (some uf dem haf a bit uf un akscent frrom der Faderland but hey, I remember my grandparents speaking the same way.)

Of US manufacturers, Triangle Tube and HTP have treated me very well. Burnham has been good and I miss having those guys here on the board. Glen was a great resource here.

I still say the best warranty is still the one you never need.