Steam Heating System for New House

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Can be replaced in about 40 years, when you replace the boiler. When steam is installed right it is very efficient and will provide you with radiant heat.

I like steam, Bob Gagnon.

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johnri

Steam Heating System for New House

We are planning for a new house. We were thinking hot water baseboard heat however I'd like to consider STEAM HEAT(because we have steam heat in our current "old" house and we like it).

My question.... is steam heat still installed today, or is it considered an "older" method for heating? If it is still used, can you point me to a system that I could investigate for our use....would the old cast iron radiators be used, or is there some other component that is used?

thanks very much.

Steamhead (in transit)

Of course you can install steam today

everything you need is still available. You can use traditional cast-iron radiators, modern panel radiators (www.steamradiators.com) or cast-iron or even some types of fin-tube baseboard (if you install a 2-pipe system).

One advantage of steam is it is far less prone to freezing up in an extended power or fuel failure, than a hot-water system would be.

Where are you located?



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Mad Dog_2

We got a live one Frank......is Noel lurking around?????

It can - and occassionally is - done......Mad Dog

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Steamhead (in transit)

Spoken like

a true member of the Steam Installers Club! Can't wait to see where this is... please, please let it be Baltimore ;-)

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ttekushan_3

interesting subject.

Yes, steam is an older system and has suffered now and again from an energy usage standpoint. Steam as a medium for shuttling heat around is just about as efficient as you can get, but it precludes the extra energy extraction from flue gas condensing (like 90+ furnaces and boilers do) since no one has included a condensing economizer to the steam heating boiler package. This may change in the future, if the energy star steam boilers from Burnham and Smith are any indication.

In my estimation, steam systems have taken it on the chin in recent years because: 1) Old steam systems were coal based and now the chimneys are too large causing excessive draft losses, 2) Most of the steam boilers out there are 60's and 70's vintage units of lousy efficiency, 3) Old steam heating systems were oversized for reasons of fresh air make up heating and fast recovery needed for coal fires that go out overnight (not everyone could bank them so they would stay alight), 4) Grossly oversized boilers for the actual radiator load, growing more oversized at each boiler replacement, 5) Negligence in boiler and venting maintenance for decades, 6) Last but by no means least is that the comfort level accorded by big steam heating systems totally conceals that fact that the building envelope is a heat loss nightmare!

But you are building new so you can size it for your new home's energy demands. You might be shocked at how small a steam radiator and piping can be for modern heating applications. Its just me, but I were anywhere near the boarder of a heating zone (they've got maps of those), I'd go for the next warmer zone's smaller radiator and boiler sizing.

The anecdotal evidence out there shows that a modestly sized brand new steam heating system is quiet, efficient, not prone to overheating and extremely reliable. Furthermore, the components and materials used to build the system are of extraordinarily high durability and longevity. I tell my potential clients (tongue in cheek, sort of) that a steam system should get a good tune up every hundred years or so!

Finally, there are a couple of philosophical questions in heating tech that are by no means answered: Is durability, longevity and low maintenance cost irrelevant to questions of total energy conservation? Is there anything "green" about central heating at all? As you may have guessed, I have a thought or two on this subject. Regarding the former, no. These are indispensable to long term energy conservation. Regarding the latter, no. Ironically, these are reasons you have not heard the last from steam heating. The first point is obvious with the long-life nature of durable steam heating systems. Steam absolutely requires the use of time-tested materials. The second point comes down to recovery rates. If one assumes that heating an empty dwelling to "normal" temperatures 24/7 with a high mass heating system (that can't recover from deep temperature setbacks) will be compensated for by boilers of several points higher boiler efficiency, then one assumes that heating empty buildings is economical. On the other hand, if one assumes that quickly heating a cool space with forced air (absent any radiant warmth and highly turbulent) will offer any comfort in a reasonable amount of time, then one assumes that energy conservation involves wearing a fluffy afghan on your head. Now lets try this on for size: A moderate mass heating system with both radiant and convective heat output. A system that will tolerate deep setbacks throughout the dwelling or in parts. A heating system that can quickly deliver high temperatures to small yet heavy emitters that can quickly recover temperatures with ease when necessary. And best yet, an inherently self balancing system whereby the radiator in the cold room kicks out far more heat than its counterparts in warm rooms without the need for complex valves and thermostats. Perhaps a half or quarter turn hand valve on each radiator would be all the complication necessary. By virtue of steam's dynamic circulation, the coldest radiator condenses far more steam until the temperatures equalize-all without active electronic and mechanical controls.

Is it starting to sound like a smart system yet?

-Terry
Efficient Steam

Check out this classic heating help thread that I saved for posterity (its a favorite):

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

I would much rather see it be in Northern Illinois....NM.



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Mad Dog_2

So John??????

Is this in R.I.? Mad Dog

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Brad White_193

Great opportunity!

You came to the right place. If in RI, this would be fun to track- a special project. I am in MA (design not installation but for myself) so pick our collective brains and let's re-create a new system from scratch.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Is anthracite coal readily available? If so and should you be willing to tend a fire with reasonable care every few days, consider the Coal Gun boiler in a two-pipe vapor system using standing cast iron radiators.

johnri

The project has not started yet, but will be on Cape Cod, MA.

My main concern with this new system, I'm trying to stay away from baseboards. I presently have steam heat, like it and like radiators (as opposed to baseboards). With the planning of the new system, I was considering hot water and have since discovered, there is such thing as a radiator for use with hot water (so I'm not necessarily limited to baseboard). So.... at this point I am deciding whether to go hot water or steam. Hot water seems to have more options as far as set ups and the types of boilers available. I like steam....(it's what I have now... so I'm still thinking about both. A hot water system seems more "available" with contractors who can work on it.... steam, although preferable (maybe) seems more problematic in that there are a limited number of contractors who would service/install it.

Thanks all for your follow ups and comments.

Brad White_193

Either one

There is no question that hot water can work more efficiently than steam. (And steam is not as inefficient as most think, when properly done.)

If you were bent on using steam regardless, that is a more costly to operate choice -but is your choice. Applied to a new house (insulated and sealed to today's standards), is an opportunity to showcase what could be done. The challenge would be to find a boiler small enough.

For efficiency and comfort (and assuming it is the radiators you love more than what is in them), hot water is the way I would go. TRV's on radiators, outdoor reset and a mod-con boiler hooked up to standing cat iron? Next to radiant floors (and you can have those too), will be the best, IMHO.

About 15 years ago I designed a one-pipe steam system from scratch in a totally renovated 3-decker in Boston. The owner loved the effect and insisted on it. I would have done a better job today (it worked fine). Rare is someone who wants to have steam for it's own sake.

I grew up with it, maybe it is nostalgia. But steam can be so much more efficient than the rap it has had over the past 30-40 years.

Bob Bona_4

I dunno

but I would not be looking at putting in a "permanent" heating system that will begin to corrode from the inside out from day one

Got time to coddle it?

Steamhead (in transit)

Corrode?

Here is a picture of a 4 1/2" steam pipe that had steam blowing through it for 90+ winters. It is from the Bromo Seltzer Tower in Baltimore. Do you see much corrosion?

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Bob Bona_4

You know

I'm talking about the wet returns

ALH_4

Warm Water

The efficiency advantage a hot water system has over a steam system may be somewhat marginal, but as fuel prices are increasing those margins add up.

My personal preference is hot water with steel panel radiators controlled by thermostatic radiator valves everywhere except for radiant floors in the kitchen and bathrooms using extruded aluminum heat transfer plates. In my opinion, this system is the best balance of efficiency, comfort, and capital cost.

Solar collectors can also be added to a hot water system, not so with a steam system.

That's just my take on the issue. I think steam systems have some very cool features and characteristics, but warm water is the way to go now that we have electricity readily available to run low watt circulators.

Maine/Baltimore Doug

Can a new modern

gas steamer run without any power? With the sometimes severe weather related power outages and grid failures a steamer that does not need power would be advantageous.

A friend here in ME kept his entire house warm for weeks with a wood fired boiler (in parallel with oil boiler) on his converted to gravity HW system during long power failures.

Ross_7

Powerpile for steam

Yes, by setting up a Powerpile gas burner for your steam boiler. You'll be nice & toasty with your Powerpile steam boiler in the middle of winter during a storm. Your neighbors will be envious. Good Luck!
Ross

Steamhead (in transit)

Theoretically

an atmospheric boiler could, if a millivolt ("powerpile") gas valve was installed. As I understand it, the need for a stack damper to reduce off-cycle losses caused boiler manufacturers to abandon the millivolt system. But someone, might be Effikal, has come out with a stack damper for millivolt applications.

You'd still need a float-type LWCO though, which is not my favorite....

"Steamhead"

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Maine/Baltimore Doug

LWCO

Can one use a dual LWCO setup with one being slightly higher to be a primary and float style as secondary or vice versa? In periods of no power the HO would need to monitor more closely.

Seems to me that operation during no power would be a selling feature for new installs as well as replacement steamers in areas where electric can be dodgy in the winter.

Steamhead (in transit)

You're absolutely right

running without power would be a big advantage. But in order for a probe LWCO to allow the burner to run, it must be receiving power from somewhere. Maybe a very large UPS with extra batteries? That would make sense for an atmospheric gas steam boiler since there's no motor to operate......

The dual setup is common on jobs that fall under CSD-1; some smaller commercial boilers can use dual probes and of course we favor those.

"Steamhead"

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Ross_7

Effikal/Bradford White

Frank,

I know that Bradford White has a millivolt commercial water heater. I believe that it is made by Effikal. Also, there is still a MM #150 & #67 available for use with millivolt controls. I think that I've looked into this before.