Alternating Receiver or Boiler Return Trap

Jim_158

in RI. I worked with an engineer laying out the new boiler and other changes to the system. Considering who knows what somebody might do (with the best of intentions), they need a foolproof (idiotproof) system.
I have lived with and have a great interest in old steam heating systems. I am also a mfg rep for various steam specialties (traps, cond/BF pumps, PRV's, meters, pressure powered pumps, etc...) I recommended (and specified)the electric BF pump out of practicality, not ignorance or financial self interest.
However I do not want to see these head off to the scrap yard and then to Asia if someone can can appreciate their value.
Is anyone rebuilding these? I assume there are some still in operation.

Jim_158

Boiler Return Trap or Alternating Reciever

Is there any interest or value to a couple of alternating receivers? Not sure of make, size, or date of mfg, I have not seen them in person yet. I assume they have failed, I don't know how.
The boiler is being replaced and an electric boiler feed pump is to be used.

Steamhead (in transit)

Probably being replaced

because someone doesn't know how they work. Or someone just had to move a boiler-feed pump that was gathering dust.....

If the new boiler's waterline is no higher than the old one's, and the pressure is kept below 1/2 PSI or so, they can probably run with no mechanical return at all. The Return Trap only came in when the coal boiler's pressure got too high.

If you can salvage those Return Traps, do so. Where are you located?

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Steamhead (in transit)

Why

would the BFP be more practical than gravity return? Was there a reason gravity-return wouldn't work? Why add mechanical complexity and service headaches when they're not needed?

At least half of the condensate and boiler-feed pumps I see in the field are just not necessary. These units and the extra traps that are needed in certain cases to use them, add many more moving parts to these systems. Each moving part is a possible point of failure. This is why the Tudor vapor system is a work of genius- it has the fewest moving parts of any system.

On a Vapor system such as the one in this church, the pressure was normally kept very low. If the pressure got too high, the Return Trap made sure the water could return to the boiler. Nowadays we have Vaporstats to keep boiler pressures at less than a pound, so the pressure doesn't get high enough to keep the water from returning by gravity.

Unless you're using something like a scotch-marine boiler that needs really tight control of the water level, you would better serve your customer by specifying gravity-return.

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Jim_158

If I was in charge of running this system ...

I would fully agree with you. I do not expect to be involved with the ongoing operation and maintenance of this system, I am not a member of this church.
Sometimes designing a system that works well and can be understood by many trumps a perfect system that can easily be upset by someone that does not understand it.
For clarification this is a two pipe system with steam traps at each radiator and end of main drips. I also assume the new boiler will have a much lower water volume, and need makeup water sooner than will be available from the condensate return system. The specified boiler is a Burnham V1107SG.

Steamhead (in transit)

That's a problem

by your own admission:

"I do not expect to be involved with the ongoing operation and maintenance of this system, I am not a member of this church."

But someone has to maintain the system, and the extra equipment you are pushing will make their job more difficult, and cost the customer more money, both at installation amd maintenance. And when this expensive stuff breaks down, you don't get the fireworks from the customer like we do.

This has gone to extremes in the Baltimore area. I once worked on a rowhouse where someone had installed a return pump. A rowhouse! The thing was noisy and it added nothing to the system's operation. We took it out as well as the master trap and went back to good, old-fashioned, simple gravity return. No more noise, no more leaky pump seals from constantly starting and stopping, and a very happy customer.

Will the boiler have enough water to continue to steam before condensate returns? Probably. Burnham doesn't include the amount of water in the V11 series' steaming range in their online literature, at least not that I could find, but one can pick up the phone and ask them. If you know the EDR of the system in which you're installing this boiler, you can get some idea of the volume of pipes and radiators you must fill with steam. And remember, when you boil a certain quantity of water it expands 1700 times (at atmospheric pressure) as it changes to steam. Keep the operating pressure low and you don't have to make as much steam to begin with.

As for your notion that no one can understand the system if you use gravity return- just ask Dan how many copies of his book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" he has sold. His clear-as-a-bell explanation of the "B" dimension, and why it's important to crank the pressure down, should work for anyone who reads it.



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