Converting Propane Steam Heat

LoriMae

I have a 100+ year old one pipe steam system. 14 years ago it was converted to propane. Due to rising costs in propane I need to convert to electric (or sell my home). Is there a way to convert the system to electric? There is no one here in ND that is very knowledgable about steam systems. The locals recommend putting in electric baseboard or stand alone electric storage systems and totally remove all the radiators. Due to the historic nature of my home, I really don't want to do this. What options do I have?

Thank you,
LoriMae

Dale

conversion

I think the cost of electric per btu is more than propane. Even giving electric the no vent gain. I would start by doing the math with the propane and electric companies. You can't convert what you have and I don't know of any small electric steam boilers. You could get an electric hot water boiler and convert the steam to hot water which is another very large cost. However my guess is propane in a modern condensing boiler will still be cheaper. So, what to do? If you have and AC system to cool you could look to a heat pump for the above 30 degree days and allow the steam for only the coldest weather. Good luck on this I don't think there are any good inexpensive choices.

LoriMae

We have off peak electric here which is about three cents a KWH. Propane is running $2.25. So electric is definitely more economical. I've read about steam electric boilers. Are they not available?

We do not have AC either.

LoriMae

Dale

fuel math

Well if you can get off peak for that price and propane costs what you quote electric is certainly cheaper. A million btu at about $8.79 as compared to $24.56. Now, what is the normal elect. rate? Off peak is fine if the "off" isn't too long, I have off peak and they can turn you off for up to 2 hours, usually on the coldest days because it's a winter peaking utility, also elect. rates hide customer charges. I would ask for a elect. company estimate of the use and customer charge for a given use, say if you used 300 kwh. The propane number is for 100% efficient which is not real world on steam. As to electric steam you still have piping and pickup losses just not stack losses. I personally have only seen 3phase steam electric boilers, I have never looked for or seen a single phase steam electric but the input would be a wiring challenge. For instance a large electric water heater is 5500 watts or 18,766 btu. Say 100K btu input, a small steamer, 29.3 kwh or 29300 watts or at 240 volts 122 amps. (I'm doing the formulas from memory so you should confirm numbers.)You cannot just turn on 122 amps, even if you had the wiring so you would have to stage the input like an electric furnace so my guess is the house would need a complete rewire, at least the panel and supply. Please share with us what you google on single phase elect. steam boilers. Good luck

Larry C_13

Building envelope

LoriMae,

One of the first things to do, is to reduce the losses coming out of the building. 100 years ago they built houses with little to none insulation, and sized the heating plant to heat the building with all of the windows open!

Anyway, probably the best investment would be in insulation and sealing the building. When the building needs less heat to maintain the temperature, the fuel bills will go down. Another way to look at this is to consider the insulation as fuel you only buy once, but reuse over and over.

Insulation is usually needed in the outside walls, the attic floors, and around the top of the basement foundation.
Also all of the steam heating pipes should be insulated.

Another thing to look at is how efficient is the existing steam system operating. How quiet is your steam system? A well tuned system should not be making thumps and hammering noises, and not have whistling or dripping radiators. The radiators should be getting warm within a few minutes of the boiler coming on. The boiler should be running for at least 5 or 10 minutes continuously when it does come on. The water level in the boiler sight glass should not be bouncing up and down alot when the boiler is running. The maximum pressure of the steam system should be under 1 psi. If it is operating at the 2 to 5 psi range, you are wasting all sorts of fuel unecessarily. If your steam system is not quiet or it turns on and off repeatedly, try contacting one of the contractors listed under "Find a Professional" in the RESOURCES tab at the top of this page.

At least one of the professionals on this site has traveled out West to help people with their steam system.

Good Luck.

Larry C (Not a heating professional but is very interested in steam heat.)

ALH_4

Electric

I believe she is under this rate schedule in her area. MDU General Electric Space Heating Rate

How about electric radiant ceilings?

Steamhead (in transit)

Maybe you could

put the old coal-fired boiler back on line? ;-)

Seriously, tightening up that house is the very first thing to do, assuming you haven't done so already. New windows (you'd be surprised how authentic some of these things look), insulation, weatherstripping, caulking, etc. etc. etc. will reduce the amount of heat you need to put into the building.

The Minot area needs a good steam/hydronics contractor. Of course, consulting is available even if Northworst is the only airline serving that area ;-)

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

LoriMae

Thank you all:

We had done as much as possible at this point in reducing loss through the exterior. We've sealed the windows as best we can while they are being reglazed. This summer I plan to blow insulation into the roof - though I don't know how much that will help. The third floor is sealed off during the winter and not heated. There is nothing I can do about the exterior walls - the building is double brick construction, approx. 18" thick. I have also insulated the steam pipes in the basement and the vertical pipes.

We were very fortunate to have "Steamhead" drop by last May and look at our system while he was in the area. I do need some vents, but no one here knows how to put them on or why I would even need them. The system has been abused over the years, the entire third floor is shut off and many of the rad's on the second floor do not work. Though the boiler runs fine, it "looses" enough heat to heat a 2500 square foot house (did I mention my "home" was a 100 year old, 9,000 sq. ft. hotel?)and is 12 years old. The pressure is under 1 psi and the system is generally very quiet.

We do have a three phase electric "box" (huge green thing in our back yard) the electric company just put in for off peak electric. Our off peak program currently works at a 7/3 kwh charge. During peak hours it is 7 cents and off peak hours it is 3 cents. There are no black out times. The electric company suggests individual self storage units to replace each of the rads. I am really trying to avoid that option as they look, well, icky.

I love the look and feel of steam and would love to make the system as efficient as possible and be able to keep it.

LoriMae

Steamhead (in transit)

Insulating the top floor ceiling

will really "put a lid" on your fuel consumption (yeah, I know, bad pun). Ask me how I know that!

And check your e-mail.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

LoriMae

Hi Steamhead!

Good to "see" you! Hope all is well your way.

Believe me, I have thought of putting that coal monster back to work! Especially after I found out I was helping to heat Velva.

Still working on the windows...one at a time.

LoriMae

ttekushan_3

Steam efficiency

Hi everyone,

I thought I might pipe up on this one. [sorry.] Its interesting that those who have suggested installing electric baseboard assume that heat transmission via steam is somehow inefficient. Steam is the lowest mass, highest heat content medium imaginable. Steam carries just about 1,000 times the energy for the same mass of water. And this with negligible resistance to flow.

An electric boiler would be "100%" efficient. So the losses are about zero. All the heat goes into your home. In foregoing tearing the place apart to install electric baseboard you get to keep the radiators and the high thermal mass of the cast iron that makes homes of that construction comfortable. I would leave the other boilers.

Specifically, the propane unit could be retained and boiler use chosen based on electric costs versus propane costs. Piped in parallel, a timer could activate the propane boiler during peak power times, and switch to electric off peak. As Steamhead suggested, that coal beast might come in handy someday too... Actually, I don't think those coal boilers were that bad when used with the solid fuel they were designed around, but only if you are a good stoker!

If necessary, you could provide or install oil filled electric baseboards in a few living areas so that overall building temperatures can be set back significantly under low occupancy conditions regardless of steam heating fuel choice.

I wouldn't trust anyone who cavalierly suggests destroying an irreplaceable heating system that you already own, to install something that will destroy the integrity of the facility you have. First do no harm!

Three boilers? Goldilocks would approve.

-Terry

nicholas bonham-carter

Converting Propane Steam

there is no good reason to junk your steam system,when you can just get it working properly.in the absence of a knowlegable steam mechanic you will have to do more of the observation and diagnosis of your steam problems[with a lot of good advice from here].i certainly was able to get our C.1885 7 - unit apt. bldg. up and running better than i ever remember it and i first came to this house 60 years ago when it was coal!
i think you can be certain that your system like mine was designed and installed to a very highly competent standard.now with the passing of time it just needs help to return it to original operation.
get dan's books[if you do not have them already]
get a good low pressure [0-48 OZ] gauge from gaugestore.com.you may think you have one pound pressure on your pressuretol but it could be plugged up and allowing more pressure to develop[i keep mine between 2 and 12 oz.].
once you know you are steaming properly you can then pay attention to the waterline
the main venting
the radiator venting
hope this not only helps but even more important encourages.now maybe you can post some pix of the hotel to lure the wallis up to look at your system!--nbc

ttekushan_3

good idea

"now maybe you can post some pix of the hotel to lure the wallis up to look at your system!--nbc"

FIELD TRIP!

LoriMae

Hopefully the picture is here

I think I added a picture of our "little house on the prairie" for you all.

I really do want to keep the steam system and your help has been wonderful. I'm trying my best to tempt Steamhead for another trip our way. Anyone else going to be in the area? We love give tours in trade for advice!

Thanks.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Yikes! I bet your heating bills make you think you're buying a good, late model used car every year...

While the historic preservationist in me usually dislikes the idea greatly, to my eye the brickwork design of that building is perfectly suited to an exterior insulation/finish system. Also, install storms on those huge windows!

If you plan on closing off the 3rd floor each heating season, I would suggest loose-fill insulation in the 2nd floor ceiling in addition to insulating the attic.

Simply replacing the LP boiler with an electric (if you can find one) will do nothing to address any existing problems in the system that already reduce its efficiency. Even with good insulation, you'll need some SERIOUS amperage to heat that place via electricity and unfortunately due to the nature of steam systems (you size the boiler to the radiation--not to the heat loss) added insulation won't allow you to reduce the boiler size without extensive and extremely expensive modifications to the system.

Even by my local terms, your electricity is extremely inexpensive. Do you believe that it will remain so in the years to come? Is there some sort of government guarantee that it won't rise rapidly?

Please take this in the spirit intended: That building (in present condition) is to heat loss what a full-size Hummer is to fuel economy--extravagantly excessive. Since you obviously don't have unlimited funds, my best advice to you is to do nearly anything to reduce your heat losses by as much as is reasonably practical. Then get a good steam man in there to get the present heating system running as efficiently as possible. Then and only then would I consider replacing the boiler and/or heating system.

The Boiler Dr.

Had I known ...

of your steam dilema, I would have happily stopped by on our return from Wetstock. After getting pumped up by Steamhead and others I was just itching for an opportunity to practice newly minted wisdom. Sadly we spent time in Deadwood at the historic Franklin only to find out the rest of the steam is slated for elimination ... mostly due to neglect and knucklehead repairs.
As others have already said, tightening up the envelope is money well spent. Electric steam boilers should be readily available in your area but one of the biggest killers of those appliances can be your water source. It may cost as much or more to treat your water than the potential savings if the water source is exceptionally hard or high in iron content.
I am located just 6 driving hours north east of you. Minot is an economical weekend adventure .. even at today's fuel prices.

LoriMae

Hey Boiler Guy

Drop me an email and we can chat the possibilities!

chocolate@srt.com

We have lots of knuckleheads here in ND! The first thing all of the steam "experts" here have told me is to turn up the psi on the boiler.