Munchkin 140M DOA after five years

Big Will

and your asking the wrong person about spelling I am lucky if I spell my name right. The boiler is just on a water heater stand. If I don't use a wall mount I always put it on a stand they don't cost much and it makes it easier to service. I woek in norther California and to call the area green minded would be a gross understatement. Can you say "Berkley".

Big Will

Bad T+P Valve

Was letting fresh water into the boiler for who knows how long. I saw this boiler Dec. last year and it was OK. Went by on Friday to find what you see in the pics. I cleaned the thing and pressure tested it. I found three pin hole leaks in the H.X. The guy has pretty hard water and I have no idea how long the T+P valve leaked for. I will call HTP about a new HX tomorrow. Could not find one anywhere on line. Do they even sell replacement heat exchangers. This is the first modern boiler I have seen lose a heat exchanger. I have the customer set up with temp hot water so I have the time to deal with it. I am hoping this is a one time deal I have a few Munchkins out there.

Bob Sweet

No pic's

did you attach some pic's? Is this a closed system, non/oxy pipe? What is the quality of the water is it well water, conditioned water?

Got a few out there myself. Could you give more specifics?

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Big Will

forgot the pics

oxy pipe were I can see it so I asume its all ok. Closed system. Well Water filtered to five microns. Also has a ozonater to remove a little bit of smell. With the T+P leaking though it is a open system like it or not. I don't have any pics installed though it is piped properly. First looked at it at about 1 pm friday. It was 6:30 before I was done with the temporary on demand.

Rich Kontny_3

Will

Two things come to mind:

1. Was the condensate line properly pitched and drained?

2. Ozonator can be a problem depending on type used???

Rich

Robert O'Brien

T&P valve?

Do you mean Boiler relief valve? And if so,no one noticed the discharge?

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tim smith

Munchkin failure

That boiler looks like it has been ignored badly. Definately does not look like it got an annual pm on it. I think if you do not get the coffee grounds out annually you will run into a problem with corroding from combustion chamber side. I think condensate is going to absorb into the grounds and corrode through the stainless.
I have had one of these heat x changers corrode out after 3 years on one that was taken good care of, but it was on the bottom in the condensate collector pan 3 or 4 small pin holes. It was pitched right and was corroding above where condensate could collect any way. Just a footnote, Tim

Rick Kelly_6

Oxidation

Don't discount the possibility that the ozonated water is the main culprit.

Keep in mind what ozone is: O 3 an extremely aggressive oxidizing agent. I'm sure that HTP didn't design their SS heat exchanger to stand up to ozone.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Ozone

03 + H20 = H202 + 02

Peroxide and oxygen

Rather corrosive...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

\"Possibility\"...

...is an understatement.

Unknown

Ozone?

How does one combat that Mike?

Dave

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Deny Access

Don't produce it in the system!

All the ozone I've smelled produced in concentration (both intended and unintended) is via electric arcing--e.g. lightning, plasma.

A high-frequency arc lamp electrically connected to a hydronic heating system that's producing a high oxidizer in the presence of heat, water and chrome alloy steel?

The chlorides in the system are fleeing via the quite colorful and varied spalling on the heat exchanger.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

That Poor HX

Egyptian sun-dried brick below grade in New Orleans.

Big Will

warranty?

I am not sure about the warranty. I have talked to the local rep and the biggest problems is not the feed water but that I can't read the entire serial number. I unplugged the ozone generators that fed into the storage tanks. The water system has a bit of iron in it and oxygenating the water and pumping ozone into it just exelerating the rust. The water apparently had a slight sulfur odor when the well was first tapped but I can't smell it now. I unplugged the ozone generators last year. I assume they have not been plugged back in although I did not go to the well house to check. I have maintained the machine for the last two years but the original install was messy we changed a lot of things last year just to make it look better. The piping was real sloppy and the guy is a high end contractor. I pointed out the general mechanical room appearance and he had his plumber re pipe things and it looks great now. The boiler was neglected from the day it was removed from the box. The lid had pock marks from solder drips and scratches all over it and the thing was just dirty. I did open it up and clean it last year though. It was cleaner inside than outside then. But you can see from the picks that the thing went down hill fast. The pin holes are all in the same heat exchanger circuit so I think a problem with the steel in that tube section. All three pin holes were right at the apex of the bend in the tubes oval. I saw the code for ignition failure and expected a broken igniter when I pulled it it was dirty but whole. I sure didn't expect that when I opened it up. The T+P line comes out through the same hole in the concrete as the condensate so I think the customer noticed it but thought it was normal condensate. And yes the condensate is properly sloped.

Constantin

Amen!

I never understood automatic feed valves on heating systems. Some installers go as far as only making temporary connections to the DCW supply, to be broken once the system has been filled and purged. That way, a leak in the system will not only become apparent but will also be limited in its damage potential.

For a system in Maine that I had some involvement in, we started by cleaning with Rhomars water treatment (high sulfides, very high iron content, etc.), producing lots and lots of black water. That was followed by well water from a known (i.e. analyzed) clean source of water with the Rhomar conditioner in it. The result (so far) has been a faultless system.

If I were a contractor, I would always give customers the option to do a flush + clean with a new boiler. In areas with known water issues, I'd probably require it - it's a pay me now or pay me later situation.

Ted_9

It seems to me that the pressure relief has been replace and it is improperly installed. It should be installed with a street 90 going up, then the relief pointing out the side with a short nipple and a 90 pointing down. Shouldn't a boiler relief be installed vertically?

Tom Hopkins

Re: DOA Munchkin

I am curious...was there glycol in that system? Any type of inhibitor?
I was told several years ago that the Europeans are big on water conditioning. They have it done yearly to keep their systems running well.
No passing judgement here...all I know is that that thing is UGLY!
Please keep everyone posted with what you find out about the cause!

Big Will

No glycol

As far as cause. I think its a mix of aggressive water and a problem with a section of stainless. If the leaks were spread out more in the heat exchanger it would make more sense but all three are in the same piece of stainless pipe in the primary heat exchanger. I doubt if this is a common problem with munchkins. I have seen a few piped as open systems that are quite a bit older and still run.

I included a pic of a system we just finished. I wish I had remembered to take a before pick it was ugly. A friend who does solar is putting in a domestic storage tank and a evacuated tube panel next month. This was originally a solar heat source system that had a fire place heat exchanger as a back up. The second owner had a plumber put in a boiler and abandon the 1000 gallon stainless solar storage tank that was were my boiler is now. The original drawing was still on the wall. Kinda scary with the fireplace heat exchanger but neat otherwise. The tank had three heat exchangers in it. first was the solar and domestic hot water. second was for the fire place heat exchanger and the third was for the baseboard. The tank was just filled with water and stored energy. I ran the numbers on the base board and their was enough length to heat the house with 145 deg on design days.

Big Hammer

Nice pic

Nice looking install Will. Those AQ panels go together pretty nice up there. Are those siezemec restraints on the tanks? Not sure I spelled that right but hopefully you catch my drift.
What did you mount the boiler on?
Sounds like you are running into a fair amount of solar.