Dumb as we want to be...

Paul Pollets

Thomas Friedman's op-ed nails our energy policy and 'strategy'. Note the solar credits end this year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/30/opinion/30friedman.html?em&ex=1209787200&en=c74689f177717558&ei=5087%0A

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Steamhead (in transit)

Vote the bums out

in November!

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[Deleted User]

Do you mean

ALL of them?

jp_2

I aint waitin

for the government to do the right thing.

I AM DOING THE RIGHT THING!!!! solar panels on outside, low wattage lights in the inside.

why do we need to wait for the government to tell us this?

guess i do not make a good follower..........

Brad White_185

Take time to assess

how much the actions of government at all levels affects us. Personally, I tend to ignore them as much as possible. Let them play in their sandbox, I will play in mine. (Of course they do tend to ask me regularly to pay for their better sandbox, another topic!)

We tailor our actions based on tax credits, marginal tax rates, various incentives... how much of this is well-meaning and how much is a form of control is open to debate.

I am with JP, why wait? If each of us does the right thing as we perceive it, acting in our own best interest and ignoring government actions good or bad (not waiting on them), each of us will reap much more final benefit and under our own choices, not those of others.

Paul Fredricks_3

I agree Brad

But I'm leery of the term "own best interest". I know what you mean, but I see a lot of folks down here on the Gold Coast who think of nothing but their "own best interest" all the time. They are out for number one and nothing else matters. You see it in the fact that recycling is something they don't care about doing. They don't return empties, just toss them in the trash. They'll drive their Hummer for local errands (form is much more important than function). They drive like nuts, because they have someplace to go and feel they don't have to wait.

We use low wattage bulbs, keep our thermostats at 60 in the winter, drive the car with the best gas mileage as much as possible, drive as conservatively as possible, recycle, reuse and reduce. Yes, it's helps us, but it helps everyone and that's what counts the most. We're all on this marble together and, believe it or not, we are all on the same team.

The gov't is always late on implementation. It's up to those of us who care to keep on the forward edge, leading they way in the fight for a better planet. And most importantly, to teach our children to do the same.

Paul Pollets

we'll see...

most Americans tend to be lazy in "the land of plenty". if the government does not "lead", with serious energy policy, it's just a short matter of time that the crisis wil mount. Food shortages, fuel shortages, etc.

Since we have no incentives to save energy, or invest in alternate sources, where is this going to come from?

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jp_2

$3.75/gal

no incentive? higher winter fuel bills no incentive?

with higher and higher food costs, are you sure we are going to run out?

our freedom is a two way street, would you prefer al gore ruling with his iron fist and ideas?

Tony_23

It's their right

Like it or not, it's their right to use what they pay for. You use what you pay for as you wish, no ?

When the govt starts mandating how much road fuel you can use, then heating fuel, then wheat, corn, milk, and water you will know exactly how miserable life was in the USSR. Govt mandates for "the common good" are seldom that. You think there's corruption and graft now, let the govt have the power you are implying they should have.

This country didn't become the power that it is by govt mandate.

Rich Kontny_3

Rich Kontny_3

Paul

You are very correct as it is human nature to do only what you have to. We are in an industry with strong codes and regulation(both plumbing and heating) that not only need enforcement but uniform enforcement. This is where the government steps in.

We also tend to treat the government like some entity out of reach and out of influence. Only we can correct the mess by informing ourselves and each other and then by holding our elected officials accountable. This is basic Civics 101. It may give us all headaches and reasons to complain and dislike it yet we have the power and the means to change that.

This administration had this country ever so close to an oligarchy that many were looking to bail for better options. The option came from the electorate in the fall of 2006 when the pendulum finally turned back toward the center. This movement toward moderation was seen again as the moderate maverick Republican McCain came from the back of the back to the doorstop of being the Republican nominee.

What does this have to do with energy and big business? We need a president and complimentary staff that represents all Americans not just the rich or influential.We have a great opportunity to do so this fall and it will be the candidate that addresses the needs of moderate America that will win.

The big bisiness special interest groups are in for an awakening as the better informed public steps up to the plate!

I just hope there still is an Energy Dept come January as the buffoon has stacked the deck (pro-big business, big oil,big military industrial complex) for 7 1/3 years.

His amplifiers Limbaugh. O'Reilly and others are also suddenly moving toward the center as they fear for their futures.

The other side seems to get some of this but talk is cheap while action is substance. We all need to get involved get informed and make wise decisions, not just for ourselves but for the nation!

Don't Give Up Get Informed then Involved.

Create a Passion for Peace while Supporting our Troops.

Rich K.

jp_2

2006 elections

fun thing rich, since that election and the dems taking over, gas prices have skyrocketed!

RonWHC

Incentives?

Or penalties?

The problem w/ gummint calling the shots is the folks who cause the problem(s) are always the beneficiaries of whatever program gummint comes up with. Always at the expense of those who were doing it right. Ex: The continuing bailout of lenders, & soon borrowers, from the housing mortgage scam. Can't wait for the next multi-billion $$ taxpayer funded bailout program.

Moral. If I screw up big enough - maybe that will provide an Incentive for gummint to bail me out. With your tax $$$. Whattadaya think?

troy_8

Energy Policy

We really do need special interests out. If any party pledged to control our borders, drill and utilize our own known resources and encourage development of alternative energies they would be a shoe in.

Doug_7

Oil Price May Go Up to $250, Warn Experts

Interesting to note how vigorously some people defend their right to consume.

Very few people have the ability to reduce their energy use and food requirements. Production of food has a very large energy component.

So people will just have to pay, and pay more and more higher and higher prices for energy and food - until they run out of the ability to pay.

We are not going to run out of anything, except the ability to pay the higher energy, food and housing prices. Poorer people will run out first.

Two questions:

What do you think the price of gasoline and fuel oil will be if and when oil hits $250 ?

What do you think the Arabs and oil companies are going to do with all your money ?

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=6&section=0&article=109522&d=2&m=5&y=2008

Paul B_5

gas prices today compared to....

Relatively low taxes have kept pump prices far below most other developed nations, which some say is precisely why the current runup is so painful.

Bogged down Most expensive places to buy gas Rank Country Price/gal
1. Sierra Leone $18.42
2. Aruba $12.03
3. Bosnia-Herzegovina $10.86
4. Eritrea $9.58
5. Norway $8.73
6. United Kingdom $8.38
7. Netherlands $8.37
8. Monaco $8.31
9. Iceland $8.28
10. Belgium $8.22
111. United States $3.45

Cruisin' Where gasoline is cheapest Rank Country Price/gal
1. Venezuela 12 cents
2. Iran 40 cents
3. Saudi Arabia 45 cents
4. Libya 50 cents
5. Swaziland 54 cents
6. Qatar 73 cents
7. Bahrain 81 cents
8. Egypt 89 cents
9. Kuwait 90 cents
10. Seychelles 98 cents
45. United States $3.45

troy_8

Energy cost

We live on the shores of Lake Erie. A gas utility executive told me that Canada has 691 gas wells in their side of the lake. Guess how many we have?????? You are right we have 0. No one is allowed to drill on our side. If you understand geology and how gas travels underground then you now realize that Canada is pumping gas that we could have pumped. They then sell it back to us. Pretty ingenious. I think we better look at the whole picture before we think mere conservation will solve our costs. If somebody with a little common sense doesn't have a say in these regulations we won't solve the cost or supply issues. It isn't that we don't have resources but we don't allow their usage. Blame whomever you like but lets change this silliness.

Bill Clinton_5

gas prices

I don't like paying high prices any more than anybody else here, but I've mused a bit. Back when I was a young buck driver (1960), gas cost about 30 cents per gallon, maybe 32. A loaf of wonder bread could be had at 19 cents. My twenty five dollar 49 Buick got about ten miles per gallon. Pricing that in Wonder Bread units, ten miles of driving/ 1 gallon of gas cost 1.8 WonderBread units. I doubt you could buy a loaf of wonderbread today for under $2.50. At that price, a gallon of gas costs only 1.6 Wonderbread units, so the price has gone down. The car I have today gets 30mpg on average. That means my ten miles costs me only 0.53 WonderBread units; barely 30% of my 1960 cost. Now, I could calculate that in pound-of-hamburger units if you would like to be really impressed.

Bill

Tony_23

Gas wells

Quite a few around Dunkirk and Fredonia. We have a lot here in Allegany County as well. To drill a gas well in NYS, you need to own 50 surrounding acres !

Our once booming oil business, that went almost dormant in the early 60's, is now opening back up old fields and drilling new wells. The ridiculous regulations that kept things stagnant are still there, but the price per barrel is finally making it worthwile. My olfactory memories are bringing back pleasant thoughts and memories of childhood around the smell of crude oil

If we could get a few refineries built and drill ANWR it would help. It seems instead some would rather have the oil companies taxed even more, which hinders their ability to re-invest to produce more efficiently. Sticking it to "the man" hardly ever does, it usually hurts the little guy most.

Dean_7

dumb

This is interesting because it appears that most of the problem lies in common sense and the difference in actual need and percevied need. Many people seem to lack the former and can't tell the difference between the latter. The last car I owned with a V-8 engine was a 1969 Pontiac in 1972. Every car since then has been either 6 or 4 cylinder mostly 4 cylinder. All the others were at least two years old when I bought them at half the price of new. I also maintain my vehicles so they last. A car to me is transportation only. I don't live in it and if I'm going to put money into something it will be my house that I do live in. I also don't care what anyone else thinks about what I drive. This isn't to say they weren't all decent safe vehicles. After finding this site and listening to Steamhead, Mad Dog, Steve Ebels, and a few others I totally rehabed our one pipe steam system 5 years ago and dropped our heating bills 60%. Yeah that's right 60% I have the bills to prove it (my neighbors used to laugh at my old fashioned radiators there not laughing now). Thats how out of wack the system was. The new boiler paid for itself in three years. in fuel savings. I have had compact flourescent lights for years. All of our appliances are the the most energy efficient I could find. Our electric bill is about a third of our neighbors. I personally find a house set at 60 or 65 degrees very uncomfortable. So ours is set at 72. Our energy costs have been controlled for years. The reason is we have what we actually need not what we think we need. The end result is a lot of money left over to do what we like to do when we want to. This isn't that hard. As I said at the begining seperate what you actually need from what you think you need and go from there.

Leo G_101

egg-

xactley!

Bravo ean!

Leo G

Joe_127

My take on things

I'd like to put this out there for comment. In my pessimistic view on the state of our economy, I see things going like this.....


The big oil companies are chugging right along, year after year, and as part of their financial duties, the tell Wall street analysts that they are making money hand over fist and they we will pay a dividend of 10 dollars per share (for example) this year.


The price of their stock stays steady or goes up.
Us consumers feel the pinch and steadily cut back on our usage (CFL bulbs, opening windows instead of air conditioning, 4 cylinder engines, car pooling, insulated steam mains, new windows and on and on.


In this scenario, the entire US public is on board.... we cut oil usage in all sectors of the economy.
Oil usage volume sees a dramatic drop, and the oil companies see a corresponding drop in sales, thus lower profits, and wall street analysts see red.


Then what happens? To keep playing the game, the oil companies are forced to raise prices for what they produce to please the analysts and investors, so they can still have the same amount of money coming in, or more, for less product going out.
That is a simplistic view, but I think I am pretty close.
So, the harder we try, the farther we fall back. Sad state of affairs.

Maine Doug_73

But that is our business model

Farming out is how we do it. Manufacturing is farmed out. We import cars, food, sneakers, drugs, raw materials. Running major ports is farmed out. Our consumption of oil for transporting all the sneakers around and for our SUV's and Hummers is so high that we could not pump enough locally and refine it quick enough. It is as profitable to farm that job out too.
A look at the numbers for imports and domestic production of oil and NG boggles the brain when you think how many BTU's that equals.

Paul Fredricks_7

agree with that too

Sure is their right, but that doesn't make it right. Just a part of the "I don't care how my actions affect others" syndrome. Focusing on the ME, instead of on the WE.

Maine Doug_73

And the rise

in prices is certainly not the change in the House in 2006. You give them far too much credit for power they do not have.
US consumption was 7,554,601,000 barrels in 2007 of which 4,905,234,000 was imported. The domestic production was priced at world market price in dollars which also declined in value. Here is a graph of price from 2004.

Maine Doug_73

Some graphs and numbers

A look at the numbers for imports and domestic production of oil and NG boggles the brain when you think how many BTU's that equals.
Here some interesting numbers and graphs. U.S. Total Crude Oil and Petroleum Products Product Supplied (Thousand Barrels) was 7,554,601. So add three zeros for 7,554,601,000 barrels in 2007. Imports were 4,905,234 (Thousand Barrels) so add three zeros for 4,905,234,000 barrels.
So when I hear the politicos talk of reducing dependence on imports, how much are they talking about?. You have to laugh at their promises and the fact that people believe this will happen. Perhaps it is the feel good sound bite that appeals because we do not like having to buy "Arab" oil, only one of many exporting countries.

Observation of drivers suggests that "personal use fuel" as apposed to business use fuel is still too cheap. Jack rabbit starts, must weave in and out to be able to speed, Hummers with one person to pick up Starbucks, zoom up to next red light. Look at the growth of BTUs for gasoline compared to other uses.

Steve Ebels_3

If it were only that simple

The sad fact is that US based publicly held oil companies now control less than 10% of the proven reserves in the world. All the rest are controlled by foreign companies or more commonly, by countries that hate our guts. The energy future is dismal to say the least. Paul Pollets started this out by referencing the op-ed piece by Tom Friedman. The man is absolutely correct. The scary thing about our nations energy policy is that we have no policy.

If you have the stomach to read through some very scary stats, visit www.theoildrum.com and read the articles on world production and consumption since 2004. We went over the edge in 2005 where production started to fall while consumption rose. Hint; the market is not rigged, the big oil companies are not controlling prices, Anwar is not the answer. We have seen the golden age of oil and it is now in the rear view mirror, not in front any longer.

Joe_128

Well, the point that my long winded theory was supposed to get across was no matter how much you and I scrimp and save and the like, the less energy we try to use, the more they raise their price to make up for the drop in sales.

I liken it to how property tax (or just taxes in general) cutting is bandied about as a temporary cure to our financial ailments. You can't cut taxes without losing some sort of service.

For example, our town was hit by a tornado about 8 years ago. Wiped out a lot of houses in a swath clear across town. Plus, our local government has went about cleaning up our town by having rundown, ramshackle houses which are uninhabitable torn down and hauled off. 10 to 15 a year. It actually does make the place look a lot better.

But, whereas we used to have property tax collected on, say 12000 homes a year, we loose 15 houses a year times 8 years, and our tax income to pay for the firemen and cops and for trash pickup steadily dwindles.

So, the county gov't. raises the mill levy to make up for the loss of income. A vicious circle.

The railroads faced this dilema decades ago- high taxes and dwindling income. They had loads of infrastructure and paid massive tax bills, in multiple states. Their solution was- demolish buildings and pull up track to stem the money drain.

Our town was a prime example. We had the largest terminal on the MKT RR system, and today it is a shell of it's former self. Huge concrete foundations everywhere, but no buildings on top of them! Tear down a brick and mortar building and set a metal shipping container in the spot- not a permanent structure so it draws no tax! The countys' tax base took a huge hit.

I think it is the same for our oil usage. We try to use less and they charge more for what we do use, not withstanding the "shortage" of oil. They forecast making just so much money to the analysts, and it has to come from somewhere............me.

Paul Fredricks_6

I don't pretend to know very much, but...

If there are less houses and people in your town, then there is a need for less services, ie less firemen, less teachers, less road maintenance needed, less garbage to haul, etc, so that should help to counteract the loss of tax base.

With the oil companies, I would assume that with less demand they would run less tankers, decrease production, need less people to run the operations, all should keep the price at least in check. Otherwise, if we stopped using oil completely then the price would be infinite.

troy_8

Business vs. Govt.

You are correct- In business you must consolidate or be passed by competition. In govt. They just add a new tax to pay for excess. When does a govt. program get axed? Even building dept. in most towns I'm sure are over run with bloat now that building has dropped off so much. How many have cut back? Or even reassigned to new jobs? My little town has inspectors handing out summons for all kinds of minor things just to justify their jobs.

Maine Doug_73

Makes you wonder

We seem to be very good at pissing off all the countries but not very good at long term energy policy and issues. Wait, I forgot, we are not very good at the short term either. Will somebody invent a coal fired car so I can go to the mall for Chinese sneakers...... See the list of top 15 exporters to the US and BTU graph I posted above. It is like pulling the petals of the flower, only with countries--- they love me, they hate me, they love me, they hate me...


>>>>The sad fact is that US based publicly held oil companies now control less than 10% of the proven reserves in the world. All the rest are controlled by foreign companies or more commonly, by countries that hate our guts.<<<<