What about RAY...

[Deleted User]

I'm worried about the heat exchanger dissolving and goiong down the drain.

Remember the HydroPulse cast iron combustion chamber that was supposed to last "forever"???

It's made out of stainless steel now.

I dunno...

ME

Mark Eatherton

Why is it...

We have spent the last millenium trying to keep cast iron boilers from condensing and dissolving, and now all of a sudden, this new kid on the block named RAY comes out swinging and sweating and no one seems to be too concerned. I realize that it has the backing of the person I consider the grandfather of condensing technology here in the U.S., but still, a cast iron condensing boiler???

Anyone care to enlighten this Watt Head as to what is so different about this beaut?

Maybe Pete can come in and fill us old style of foggies in.

TIA

ME

kpc_19

From what I am....

told it is a VERY heavy casting...x-tra thick. kpc

Timco

I installed this guy when it was a 200i boiler, before Ray.

http://www.knowsomethingmore.com/index.html

It is around 650# and had a few problem LOs but a more recent version of control firmware solved them. Runs, fires and really is SUPER quiet & smooth. VERY good boiler and cust is VERY happy...

Tim

singh

According to website

the down ward facing burner will "blow" the condensate down and then out prevent corrosion build up.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

[Deleted User]

Got to admit...

it is a unique looking piece of equipment :-)

Kind of reminds me of the egg shaped boiler that made a brief appearance here on the wall a long time ago.

ME

Timco

This boiler has seen a few modifications so far...a metal divider for the igniter/flame sensor, a grounding wire / resistor for the electronics, and a few firmware updates. The controller is calibrated for the sensors to be used with resistors, and my supply sensor was not being recognized, so the boiler was firing only at 100% until that was fixed...but it really is a solid unit so far. It is also a very pricey boiler...

Tim

Brad White_185

Hydrotherm KN Series

The Ray is to my understanding, the offspring of the Ken Cohen-developed Hydrotherm KN boiler. Kevin is correct, the castings are thicker and that is the heart of it.

When these boilers were substituted on a project in our office we went to work kicking the tires and met with the inventor (Ken Cohen from which "KN" is derived.) The notion of CI and condensing was an anathema to our thinking as with most of you.

The thickness is sacrificial, such that after 30 years of operation, the wall thickness is still within ASME tolerances.

The "top-down" combustion path continuously combs the exchanger surfaces downward to minimize re-evaporation of condensate (the process by which acidic salts are deposited in concentration.

The condensate does have a high iron content, I have noticed and much of that is taken up by the marble chip tank. I have no data on how the pH is affected by this but am manually monitoring one installation.

The casting geometry (on the KN which is all I am describing here as a reference base), is compact, with diagonal channels for heat absorption but also for stress mitigation. I forget offhand the CI type they use; I do not think it was malleable but that would make some sense from a stress standpoint. The nipples are a graphite material but I have not examined one personally.

I mention the casting geometry because that is one feature which enables tolerating cool water return without cracking or deformation. The Taco plant uses two KN-20's to power their snow melt via an exchanger to give one cold-fluid application.


The turn-down on fire is a burner function of course, about 4:1 if not 5:1 depending on model, but it uses the Dungs gas valve, very helpful here in Boston where our gas pressures are limited to 4.0 inches guaranteed by contract (old gas light lines in use). The Dungs gas valve will operate at 2.0 inches and has been tested at less.

So, for what this is worth, as I suspect the Ray is the heir to this commercial line, these are some of the features.

mtfallsmikey

And on the other side of the spectrum

Is the "down home" explaination/question: Could it be that the boiler casting has a higher percentage of nickel content, therefore making it more durable, less resistant to corrosion? Back in the day when the separate GM divisions (Cadillac, Olds, Chevy, Pontiac)designed and manufactured their own engines, the Caddy/Olds/Pontiac engine blocks had a higher nickel content than Chevy (sorry Chevy fans!, consequently making the blocks heavier and more durable with larger water passages. I just completed a rebuild on my '72 Cutlass convertible,with a 350 c.i.engine, and other than the normal boring/main bearing resizing, the water ways in the block were relativly free from corrosion.

singh

Flue gas condensation

Also with conventional CI boiler, condensation issues showed at the thin Flue pipe first, the weakest link, and in extreme cases rotted those away.

I noticed the Ray is using SS venting.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Plumdog_2

What about the GV Gold from WM?

They were (are) made to condense and are cast from iron...

Wayco Wayne_2

My favotie part

of condensing boiler technology, is that the boilers weigh a lot less. This seems like a step backwards on that front. WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Chap

ME, Wayne....

I spent a day with Pete Caruso at the factory and we toured the foundry (next door) to witness the castings being poured - way cool to watch! Sat through their very first presentation with two reps and we had the opportunity to give feed-back.

Quite frankly, I had the exact same concerns as you both have mentioned. Given the open nature of our discussion, I tossed out every negative I could muster. Following our discussion, we toured the assembly line where we were allowed to interact freely with the assemblers and the boilers. No yellow line boundaries! Must be Pete's influence as that's how it was in France when we visited the MZ R&D live-fire top-secret room. We were (in France) allowed to take apart and examine anything we wanted, so the oil-fired condensing boiler was quickly eviscerated for a forensic dissection. But, I digress....

After the factory & foundry tour, we visited Ray's bigger brothers in the plant's mechanical room - also cast iron condensers. Ray is a chip off the old block (of cast iron, that is). And then we revisited the conference room where we were asked to give them our frank opinions.

You know me ME! I told them I thought they had a few issues to overcome: the cast iron condensing corrosion issue; and the weight issue as none of us are getting any younger and our knees & backs ain't exactly in prime condition.

They stated this boiler is a long-life product with a 35 to 50 year anticipated life-span & by that, they meant the cast iron would still meet specs for thickness - not that it would be leaking. They actually anticipate a much longer run-to-failure life-span.

The weight issue is being studied and they have a few novel ideas about how they can package the boilers to make getting one up & down steps much easier to deal with for us old in-the-process-of-breaking-down farts!

Interesting technology that reminded me, somewhat, of the Buderus condensing cast iron boiler on display at ISH-Germany in 05.

Nice to see Pete back in the game.

Unknown

The gold is

not a condensing boiler it is a Category III mid efficiency boiler. In fact it has a built in bypass circulator to protect against low return water temps.

Boilergeek

Another way of looking at this;
It is a boiler that has almost no minimum flow rate
"100deg delta t"
5 gallons of water and 500 lbs of iron mean no buffer tank, no short cycle, no cleaning the water side,
The Dungs valve configuration allong with flat metal mesh work great.
Can run down to 1" WC at full fire with no change in combustion numbers
They state that it is 3" but I have tried to see how low I could go.I can be running DHW load at 180F and go back to low temp radiant and the thing doesnt shut off. It is a rare event that I can watch the system not on. The thing runs and runs, mostly between 20 and 30% No short cycling here
DOWN fired COUNTER flow but with something that buffers the heat built in.
I have taken internal pictures of a KN20 UI started in dec of 2005 with 15,000 hours running a paralell piped paver snowmelt. No deterioration of the fireside at all. I removed the condensate fluid from the trap for the first time since startup and found about 1/8" of iron that came out of thea 2 mil. iron beauty. With one pass condensate the condensate never gets re-evaporated. The acidic condensation that has eaten Conventional iron boilers does not exist in this design. It is anything but conventional

Anyone familiar with the commercial KN boilers knows how sweet they run once they have been set up.
This boiler has the same "personality" as its daddy
I have been running one in my house all winter now and I am so impressed. I commision all sorts of equipment, This one turns me on more than is safe to express on this site.
I love the ray,
Good to see the good people of the wall giving Pete Caruso the respect he deserves.
"The Godfather" God bless him.
Tommy Thompson

ALH_4

Appearance

My only real complaint is the appearance. I suppose it would pass as a part on an old Minneapolis Moline tractor, but it has to be the least attractive boiler I have ever seen.

That said, I'm sure it works great.