Plumbing: New mandated gas stove shutoff valve location?

Unknown

doing it that way for years as it allows shut off in the event of a fire quickly at the site. I also put one downstairs below the floor just in case the fire prevents getting into the adjacent cabinet.

As for the pots and pans use black pipe and as much as possible shield the connector from utensil traffic. It just takes a little creatiivity.

D107

Westchester County

Plumber working on new kitchen says they now want to see the pipe come up into a floor cabinet adjacent to the stove. The flex attaches there and goes sideways out the cabinet near the floor and attaches to the stove.

The intent seems smart here as a way to permit people to shut off the gas in an emergency without having to pull out the stove. But I'm thinking there must be a better way---maybe having the shutoff stick out high behind the stove. Putting it in the rear of the cabinet where it's subject to being banged around by pots and pans seems questionable to me.

What do you guys do?

Thanks,

David

Al Letellier_9

gas line location

Another point here....when will someone put some pressure on the appliance industry to give us enough room behind the stove to do the work we have to do. It is simply too tight a space. Also how about center stiles under sink cabinets. We "bigger" plumber have a very hard time getting under there....isn't about time we win a few of the battles????

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Chap

We

always install a shut-off vlv in an accessible location. Always kinda cracked me up that we are required to install a shut-off vlv BEHIND the stove - as if anyone will ever pull out a stove that's on fire to access the vlv!?! Mind you, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a vlv there (we always do), it's just that a second emergency shut-off vlv should be mandated in a suitably accessible spot.

Robert O'Connor_15

stoves

Why not include clothes dryers. While were at it, why not include valves serving ice makers. Next time you are in a residence ask if they know where that valve is located.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

nicholas bonham-carter

safety regs

this looks like a feature which should be incorporated IN THE STOVE.
imagine pulling pots and pans out of a cupboard next to the stove [that's on fire!!]only to discover that the gas stop valve is on the OTHER SIDE!!
a large red button should be on the stove top ready to be pushed in an emergency.
i am certainly in favor of safety regs ,but let's have them well thought out.
i am sure that all of you can think of other well-meaning but ultimately ineffective [or dangerous] regulations.--nbc























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eluv8

gas valves

I put a gas valve just past the main regulator for the whole house and make sure my homeowner knows where it is along with a whole house water shutoff usually accessable from the mechanical room, or some other conveniently located place.

kev

Just had this conversation

with local inspector today. If you are installing a traditional stove or "VIKING" range and install your supply and stop in the cabinet next to it. The black pipe or flex connector will prevent you from sliding the stove back to the wall completely, or crush the flex connect trying to. The code does not refer to appliance valve as an emergency shut off. I have seen a few models with the gas connect in the front with a service valve built in. The inspector and I never came to an answer and he will look at the code and make a decision. He is seeing the problem often. It seems the inspectors in the towns around me have been asking for this readily accessible valve as of late.

jackchips_2

I never

looked at that valve as an emergency valve but rather a service valve for when the stove had to be replaced.

Interesting comments about a stove fire, not sure I've ever heard of one of those. If there ever was one wouldn't it make sense to shut down the entire gas line?

Things you thought you knew and then there was the Wall.

Jack

Unknown

The code requires

a shut off be within six feet of the appliance. It makes good sense to place the shut off in an accesible location. As I stated earlier in this posting put one nearby in a cabinet and one downstairs just in case you can't get at the one in the cabinet. Most range fires occur in the oven and there is usually a shut off under the cook top for shutting off gas to the oven, if not there is a panel down on the bottom front which can give access to the oven shut off all ranges have this. As for the top burners just shut off the knobs on the front and have some baking soda around to douse the grease or oil fire or every kitchen should have a fire extinguisher.

If it is a commercial range in a dwelling it requires and Ansul system just like a restaurant with an auotmatic gas shut off being part of that system.

I realize most of you posting here are plumbers or heating people and not appliance service persons or gas company personnel so you would not be aware of these other shut offs.

D107

Tim how do you deal with KF's scenario?

he mentions the flex coming out of an adjacent cabinet either being crushed or preventing stove from going all the way back?

Thanks,

David

Unknown

David Goldman

you run a short piece of black pipe through the side of the cabinet as far back as you can go and then attach the flex connector to it so there is no stress on the flex connector as it is outside the cabinet, it just takes a little bit of planning and good pipe fitting. Everyone is a little different than the next one.

We used to have training sessions in the evenings with local building contractors and trades personnel when I was with the gas company and would teach them as to what we wanted to see. The reason was on a turn on of the gas the gas man would be the one to connect the range to an altready existing pipe which had been run. Sometimes it was a nightmare as the pipe would be two feet from the back wall and the range would be sitting in the middle of the kitchen floor with a big space behind it.

Unknown

Jackchips

the valve also allows servicing of the controls on the range such as oven heat control needing to be replaced.

Most homeowners do not know how to shut the gas off at the meter. Most range fires are not a major issue and simply shutting off at the location makes more sense than shutting down the entire house.

carragebolt

> a shut off be within six feet of the appliance.

> It makes good sense to place the shut off in an

> accesible location. As I stated earlier in this

> posting put one nearby in a cabinet and one

> downstairs just in case you can't get at the one

> in the cabinet. Most range fires occur in the

> oven and there is usually a shut off under the

> cook top for shutting off gas to the oven, if not

> there is a panel down on the bottom front which

> can give access to the oven shut off all ranges

> have this. As for the top burners just shut off

> the knobs on the front and have some baking soda

> around to douse the grease or oil fire or every

> kitchen should have a fire extinguisher.

>

> If it

> is a commercial range in a dwelling it requires

> and Ansul system just like a restaurant with an

> auotmatic gas shut off being part of that

> system.

>

> I realize most of you posting here are

> plumbers or heating people and not appliance

> service persons or gas company personnel so you

> would not be aware of these other shut offs.



I Like to use gas tite piping.They make a recessed box with a valve built in like the boxes for washing machine valves. yoou can hook your flex con to it.with this setup the valve and connector are all recessed.

D107

thanks Tim

so I guess the only negative then is that with that black pipe running horizontally, stove can't be pushed all the way back against the wall unless you elbow that pipe back and bury it flush in the wall. But otherwise it should only be out then half or 3/4" inch.

Thanks,

David

Robert O'Connor_15

Do your part..more stoving fun!

Don't forget when installing the stove to also include/install the Anti-Tipping Device. The code in most areas don't address this specifically but typically the administrative code mentions that when the code is silent the installation must be per the manufacturer's installation instructions.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Unknown

David if you

have the adapter for the connector plced on the pipe first and then screw it into the piece in the cabinet the connection will be flush, then attach the connector. The idea of the connector is it is "flexible" so you can manuever the range back to flush with the wall as the back splash on most ranges is designed with a bit of overhang to allow for connection.

Planning, planning, planning thats what it takes.

Bob Harper

key to the issue

Both the IFGC and NFPA 54 see appliance shutoffs not for emergencies but service. Do you really want someone to reach into a vapor cloud or near an open flame to shut it off? That's their viewpoint. If there is an emergency, get out and call the cavalry. The emergency shutoff for the house is at the point of delivery, which is the meter for NG and second stage regulator's shutoff for LP.

Some valid points about being practical. Challenge is to make it accessible within 6 feet without requiring the person to endager themselves by reaching near a flame or vapor cloud. One solution the hearth industry has used for years are key valves. These have the heavy brass or chrome escutcheon plate with a recessed 1/4" or 5/16" square shaft. The main problem with these is keeping the key available-they tend to walk off. The newer valves are listed to ANSI Z21.15 and are fully ported quarter turn non-displacing. Most hearth retailers refer to them as "Dante" valves but that is just one brand like 'Coke' versus cola. You could mount the key valve in the cabinet toe kick next to the appliance as one example. You are allowed to put a shutoff inside a cabinet within 6 feet as long as it is "accessible" as opposed to "readily accessible" which would preclude hiding it behind a door or grille.

HTH,
Bob

Part of the pushback from the builders is aesthetics. The other is cost.

Mitch_6

I myself and as it has been explained by inspectors

to me is the stop is for service only (think Boston Pattern) the home owner would need a wrench. Also if it is a grease fire just shutting off the gas will not help.

Keep in mind that a shut off in a cabinet is out of sight and out of mind. Most home owners do not know where there water meter or circuit breaker are located. They are not about to start unloading ten years of accumulated junk during a fire to find a stop they may not even know exist.

True manual emergency shut offs are clearly marked and easily triggered. They are also properly installed outside of the hazard area.

Just my $0.02

Mitch S.


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D107

Well said

This has been a very helpful thread, and I really appreciate Tim and the others taking the time to explain in detail their tricks of the trade re: the cabinet shutoff idea.

However as with many things, it is very hard to get the same kind of planning routinely done by wallies to be duplicated in the regular world, even when you're spending what you think is a good sum of money. Partially due to being very busy with other things I didn't detail this as much as I usually do. I assumed care would be taken.

I think a poorly executed shutoff in a cabinet will likely be more dangerous than the one behind the stove, as the flex will get pushed against the wall. One thing I will do is put the stove's feet on those 'EZ sliders' so that it can be easily pulled out when necessary.

If the requirement for a shutoff within 6ft of the appliance would be satisfied by a valve right under the floor in the basement--which would be less than 6ft linear, but take 25 ft walk downstairs to get to-- I am inclined to take that route.

I have clearly written tags in the basement for the major shutoffs, and every year I take my wife on a tour and remind her of the various shutoffs. That works fine--when she doesn't fall asleep from boredom-- for things like water mains, etc. but for fires or big gas leaks, I doubt that would work. The sheer number of shutoffs is alot for people to retain when they generally never think about them.
Gas,electric,water main, gas appliances, boiler, hwh,etc. If you came home and smelled gas in the house you wouldn't know where it was coming from; if you were at the stove and smelled it,it still might be from somewhere else. Tricky.

I have thought I should permanently attach a tighetened vise grip or pipe wrench on the house gas main shutoff with a clearly marked on/off sign so that in an emergency--where not too much gas had yet escaped--it could be quickly turned off.

My town has adopted the Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code as its Plumbing Code. Is this available online? I see that this website: http://ecodes.iccsafe.org/iccf/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=icc:ny

has various codes available but I can't find the one I mentioned. Is that a national or international code?

Thanks,

David

Bob Harper

David, most of the country is now under the IRC, which means the IFGC for gas shutoffs. however, there are jurisdictions that go freesyle and write their own. You also have places like Mass where the Plumbing Board is God so you have to get a copy of their entire ordinance.

Some of the CSST mfrs. make a recessed box just for this purpose but, just like the box for the washing machine hoses, it looks like hell.

The IFGC allows a shutoff for fireplaces to be remote from the appliance if it meets three criteria: serves only that one appliance, is clearly marked, and is "readily accessible" meaning no cabinets, grilles, tools or ladders to access it. This section does not apply to all appliance s, though we see it all the time. One method gaining popularity is to build a manifold then branch off with a shutoff then CSST to each appliance. This is similar to a breaker box where all the shutoffs are in one place. The problem is the pressure drop to some appliances is too much due to the long runs.

FYI, you can read almost all the the NFPA codes online but they have it blocked so you cannot save or print them out.

I recommend the I-code commentaries, which include the full code plus the explanatory material.

Bob

EMB

Gas valve piping

Here in CA, we have been piping the stove shut off to adjacent cabinets for as long as I remember. Our preferred method is to hard pipe the valve into the cabinet, then pipe back into the wall, and over to the stove location, exiting the wall less than 6" above the floor. It's time consuming, but a lot less of a headache than trying to explain to a home owner why they have to look at an ugly gas valve every time they use their $10,000 Thermador.
Also, every code I'm aware of prohibits piping gas connectors through cabinets, walls, ceilings, etc
EMB

Dave Stroman

I use a recessed box in the wall behind an adjacent cabinet. I use an ice maker type box and simply run the gas line through it with a gas cock inside. With the trim ring, it looks fine and is not in the way of anything.

Dave Stroman