GB 142 Question

Darin Cook_5

Is anyone doing before and after CO measurements to see what your "cleanings" are doing? Why is anyone using air compressors for the service? That seems like overkill and needless.

This is what I do to clean the heat exchanger. First step is shut down the boiler and remove the condensate trap and dump it out and see what is in it. I then remove the top plate and spray mineral oil on the heat exchanger, coating it very well. Reassemble and let the boiler run for 5/10 minutes or so. Open it back up and flush the exchanger out with water. Remove the condensate trap and dump it out again - reinspect. If necessary repeat process. I have a very small NYLON brush(like a guage glass brush but smaller) to clean any deposits that may need removal.

I have GB 142's that have been in operation since they were released on the US market. No heat exchanger failures as of yet.










Darin

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Steve M_2

GB 142 question

I've looked thru the instructions and service manual and didn't see mention of a safe chemical cleaner to clean the heat exchanger of the Buderus GB 142. Someone told me to spray the inside down with mineral oil and fire it up for a couple minutes and then to flush it out. If that is a method, how does it work?

hot_rod

For aluminum boilers

be sure to use an aluminum safe cleaner. Same with glycol or boiler treatments. The ph is the critical number to watch with aluminum.

There may be other brands out there but I know Rhomar is a brand recommended by some of the aluminum boiler manufacturers.

You want a cleaner tough enough to clean the oil, flux pipe dope, etc from the system. Mineral oil may be safe enough but I wonder that it would do much cleaning. Boiler cleaners are pretty much strong soaps, really, to cut and dissolve the oils.

hr

Mark Eatherton

I think he's talking about the fire side....

and yes, that is the prescriptive method. My partner did just that last week on his own GB. Said it smelled like he was cleaning his grill outside when he fired it back up. Said it cleaned the upper part OK, but didn't do so well on the bottom side.

Conversely, my service manager went up to look at a system we put on a barn a while back, and said that despite our efforts to clean up the incoming air with a filter, that the trap was again full of sludge, but that the HXer was nice and clean?

Makes ya wonder where the silver looking sludge that gets caught in the trap is coming from...

ME

Derheatmeister

And that is why i do not install them anymore....

Stainless steel is real..

singh

Yes

Compressed air, then mineral oil, then fire up, then flush out with clean water, then empty the trap and clean out, then fill back up. Don't forget combustion test.

Heatmeister, how many Buderus HX you had that failed?



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Derheatmeister

None Yet .BUT.. time will tell...

None yet..On my Installs the exchangers did not look all to bad (4 Installed)
But on multiple service Calls I've seen some pretty Nasty boilers.On one of them i pulled a bag full of Aluminium Oxide? out of the boiler and did the Mineral oil thing!

BTW that boiler was dialed in by the "Dutch"Buderus connection, it was at 10300 feet and on propane and sidewall vented.
Maybe some EGR ??? no say!

One other thing that scares me is the Glycol thing!

On my systems i used "Rhomar" to clean every thing.

And i used the proper Glycol.. Ohhh wait a minute....

Change it....Flush it..Use this treatment....and this Glycol!!

How many contractors do you think are going back on their own time to fix the System Fluid Issues?

OH yes..DO NOT clean the exchanger to good so that the Aluminium will be "Shinny".If one Exposes the aluminium the Corrosion process will start all over again!!

hot_rod

Do the \"hot dog\" squeeze on any Ultras

if the condensate tube is hard, remove and flush. They seem to shed aluminum. This was enough to lock out one that I installed several years ago.

If it isn't one thing, it's another.

I'm not sure stainless is better than aluminum? Certain components in gas and LP, peossibly the air they breath seems to attack them. Stainless does have some limits. Indirect tanks have proven that theory.

Maybe good old bullet proof cast iron is the best material for condensing heat exchangers? Certainly should cost less to produce compared to the alloys

www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS136034+20-Feb-2008+BW20080220

singh

I hear ya.

But one thing I do feel comfortable about is the Life Time limited warranty .
First 10 years, assuming proper maintenance, is waranted fully. Then pro rated there after.
A TT prestige SS HX , for example, is only waranted for 10 years . Then nothing.

But then again, should a mod/con last more than 15 years??

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Unknown

cleaning procedure

This seems like a lot of work, and from what I'm seeing probably an necessary annual event.

Dragging the compressor and probably a vacuum to clean up the dust that will go flying, waiting around while the oil burns off, and letting the unit cool down enough to pour fresh water thru it. Is going to eat up a nice chunk of the day by the time its over.

I'm not looking forward to explaining how expensive this cleaning is going to be.

What did you use to spray the mineral oil?

Big Ed_4

But that is a Good Thing

I would Figure 95% of the service companys would refuse to service a GB 142. If you know how charge for the service. How much did it cost you last time to tune up your Lambogini ? That's a pun from both sides of the coin.

Big Ed_4

But that is a Good Thing

I would Figure 95% of the service companys would refuse to service a GB 142. If you know how charge for the service. How much did it cost you last time to tune up your Lambogini ? That's a pun from both sides of the coin.......

Dennis Bellanti_2

GB Cleaning

I have one of the first field test boilers in my home. I purposely did not clean it for two years to see what would happen. Eventually it plugged the condensate trap with aluminum and would not fire because the condensate backed up into the combustion chamber. The guys from Holland have not been overly concerned by the amount of debris in the trap. Seems to be more excessive here than in Europe and the quality of gas is suspected. (We have 830 Btu per cubic foot in Denver.)

I have cleaned several GB's with mineral oil and it does a pretty good job. Seems to help if you wet it down first to get the crystals more soluable.

Dobber

Trap

Is the boiler on propane? I've be after New Hampshire to have one on propane in the lab.

Dobber

Darin Cook_5

Keep in mind this comparison

To really do a true servicing on the typical american oil boiler is a 3 hour process. You have to lug the soot vac, digital analyzer, tools, oil supplies, etc down into the basement, brush, scrub, or soot saw the sections, change nozzle & filter, take apart smoke pipe and clean, adjust or check all head settings, pump pressure, electrodes, and then clean up the speedy dry or oil absorbing powder for whatever drippage that may have occurred. Guys were and still are in some places charging less than a hundred bucks to do all of this or (at least wipe the boiler jacket off).

I am thinking that having to use some mineral oil is not a big deal in order to do an annual service on a GB and remember that is not necessary in most cases. Maintenance on most mod-cons is nowhere near the time and effort involved in an oil boiler service. Not for nothing the mineral oil smells a heckuva lot better than #2 fuel oil.

In the four years that I have been installing and servicing GB's, I have not come across this massive amount of aluminum flaking that has been described. I had one that had a black (sludge?) in the condensate trap. I could not find or get a reason why it happened but once I cleaned it with mineral oil it has not come back. I have checked it twice within an eight month time frame and will check it again when I go back to install the A/C system before summer.

The GB boiler has been in operation in Europe for over thirteen years and there are over a million of them hanging on walls throughout the world. That is pretty impressive numbers. Numbers that equate to reliability.

In the end, I do not really see doing annual service on a GB or any other mod-con as some price or labor deterent in comparison to any other sort of central heating appliance out there. I will not presume to tell anyone here what to charge for an annual service on a mod-con since eveyone here has different costs of doing business but you SHOULD NOT be charging the same to service a high-tech mod-con as a bare bones cast iron atmospheric! JMHO








Darin

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Supply House Rick

Darin

Aren't you on your Honeymoon?

Derheatmeister

Darin. I've worked on all kinds of boilers incl. Oil and used to do Annual service on them old Oil burners too..

I remember the Yellow/Black sutt the biting in the Nose,The Special Vac's ,in short :the Mess and the labor involved with this Yearly service that is pretty much Mandated in Germany!Lots of Buderus/Valliant/Viessmann/Broetche.

But! Until about 4 Months ago i was thinking much in the direction of your thoughts i.e. service on a Modcon boiler is a piece of Cake compared to a Oil burning boiler!!

I've change my mind!

If you've seen the Boilers that I've seen you may change your mind and you Pricing on this "easy" service too! I am not saying that all GB boilers are doing this!

Just what a Hesse HeizungsMonteur(Near the Buderus werke) from Germany is seeing in Colorado! Richard from Heatmeister.

Ted G

GB142/24 L.P.

I seviced 2 GB142's this week end. One was a customers and the other is mine. I have some interesting photos.

This is a GB142/24 L.P. It was put into service about 11/06. No maintanance for two heating seasons.

L30
CO 80 ppm?
CO2 9% ?
O2 ?

I don't have those numbers with me.

Ted G

GB142/24 N.G.

This one was started 10/06. It is on N.G. I set up with combustion originally. After I cleaned it ran like this:

L30
CO 20 to 27 ppm
CO2 8.8%
O2 5.7%

What I find weird is the flame rod looks like it getting eroded. Also the metal that protects the igniter was really warped. Is this unit over fired?

Ted G

Now I think I missed the point about the mineral oil. I rinsed the exchangers with water. Poured mineral oil on a brush to clean what I could and then I rinsed with water again. I never ran it and then opened it up again to rinse it again.

Does anyone see a problem with this?

Terry Larsell

I cleaned one last week and was surprised at how long it took, 3 1/2 hrs, there is a lot of little grooves in there to pick at. I didn't read anything about mineral oil in the instructions though, I just used water and air. Those German translation instructions take a little getting used to. Earth wire,? oh yeah, that's the groung wire. Putting it back together and firing the chimney sweep mode and then taking it apart is a good part of the reason it took me so long. It was making me miss all the Munchkins I've been doing lately, I can get through them in just over an hour.

It didn't have mouse turds just white crusty stuff and plenty of it,I told the customer he better plan on cleaning it yearly.

Ted G

Yeah it took me a few hours to do each clean and combustion.

Dobber

GB cleaning

You spray mineral oil on the heat exchanger then close it up and run it on high fire for 10 or 15 min.Then open it up and blow it out with compressed air.
Have you had any condensate traps split on you, LP especially.

Good Luck
Dobber

Ted G

Both traps look good. I have to go to one other LP job. We'll see what happens there.

scott markle_2

Ted did you open the bottom? lot's of crud gets deposited down there as well, and on the plate in the middle. The worse one I'v seen has some pitting in the aluminum. I think the crud was kind of acting like a sponge and increasing the corrosive effects.

Funny but as far as I know there is no official documentation on the cleaning procedure/recommendations.

Jed_2

Bottom Line

Aluminum costs Money!!

Mad Dog_2

Each install is different.....

We have serviced around a two dozen Buderus GBs this season. Some, have clean traps, some are LOADED!!!! with gunk. most are in between. Long Island pulls from many different wells, so water quality certainly varies. That being said...still love the GB. Mad Dog

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Derheatmeister

Mad Dog.. I do not understand what the wells/ water Quality will have anything to do with the traps being full of Gunk ??

Can you enlighten me?..Heatmeister

Ted G

Bottom

I posted these pics in the previous posts but here are the heat exchanger pics of the bottom.