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Islandwood Solar fix-PGP

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Paul Pollets
Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
in THE MAIN WALL
I'll burn a CD and send it to you when I take the finshed pics with insulation next week. I was sent the new manual from Rex yesterday, which helped.

BTW, the Caleffi manual does not give the example schematic of this application using an array with tube & shell HX and 2 storage tanks.

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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    The sun works!

    Finally commissioned the large solar array that we were asked to repair, repipe and provide a new control strategy. I used the Caleffi solar control with 4 sensors and the Viessmann Vitosol pumping module. Had a little problem with Caleffi, with their manuals written in "Ginglish" (German-English) as I remember in the early Viessmann days. Had to speak to their tech services to make sense of the control. Hot Rod, please re-write the manuals so they're easy to understand!!

    The system was cleaned, flushed and purged, prior to filling with Tyflocor antifreeze. The panels returned a 150 degree supply within 30 minutes, even on a very cloudy day. The Vitosol module shows 7gpm with the pump on high speed. The flow meter is very easy to read. The Heliodyne replacement panels had several defective stubout connections that required several extra man-days to deal with. Not fun. Kudos to Dennis and Todd for their roped-in expertise on a steep metal roof!

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  • Mike Dunn
    Mike Dunn Member Posts: 189
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    great job

    Two things: 1)Love the solar thermometer. 2) Did you get the OK from Viega to use propress on the solar side of the system or have you been doing that and had success with it?
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    No Problemo...

    ...with the ProPress fittings and anti--freeze. We carefully ream and clean the copper before fitting, and chemically clean the system (Chem Aqua CB93) and a thorough CW flush BEFORE we add the antifreeze.

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  • Mike Dunn
    Mike Dunn Member Posts: 189
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    what about

    temperature. Are the standard O-rings rated for that rare instance of 350 degrees F or do you put in a different O-ring. Or...do you provide other systems of control so that the solar fluid never reaches those temps?

    Thanks
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    O rings

    Never had a problem with the O rings. The Caleffi controller has a function to prevent overheating. We'll watch the fittings and see if there's any problems. The system should not exceed 250, and we can datalog the output of the collectors.

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  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    nice work as always!

    can you send me some high res shots of those install pics? thanks

    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
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    Ginglish!!

    Hey that's a good one!!! Nice job as always i'll be interested as many will to see some data as to how that offsets costs of operation when you have it.

    Ahhhh the good old days i remember opening up the first Trimatic we ever got and it was all Ginglish! Achtung baby! "Houston I think we have a problem..." but they worked us through it and it's one of those things you sit back and laugh about now.
  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
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    ????

    Picture 3 shows what appears to be a thermometer installed in the piping who makes that? Is it battery only? looks neat and I've never seen one like it out here on the right coast
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    Solar thermometer

    is made by Weiss Instruments. It does not use batteries.

    http://www.weissinstruments.com/tempdvu.htm

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  • Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating
    Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating Member Posts: 1,361
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    Only Domestic Hot Water?

    Or are you going to do any radiant space heating with the solar? Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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  • joel_19
    joel_19 Member Posts: 931
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    theremometer

    Cool, errr... I mean Hot! thanx.
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    RFH

    All of the buildings at this facility have radiant floor heating and Viessmann boilers. The DHW load is large and the supplemental heat from the panels offsets the DHW usage. All of the 4 dorms have both PV and DHW arrays. The system was designed to get the most bang for the buck. Designed 7 years ago, the technology has changed. We've specified (4) 30 vaccuum tube arrays (which equals 16 flat panel collectors) for the next building.

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  • Steve Eayrs_2
    Steve Eayrs_2 Member Posts: 56
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    delta T

    Thanks for sharing the picts. You mentioned a return temp of 150deg. Curious what the average delta T is on this, thru the tube and shell exchanger? Any special reason you picked this type of exchanger, over say plate or possibly indirect tanks?
    Put up two tube panels this spring, on a place, using indirect tank, w/ coil, and can't seem to get a decent delta T on it. An 80 gal indirect, dedicated to preheat dhw, before it hits the boilers dhw tank. Wondering if the tube/shell is a better solution.

    Steve
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    Design

    ART did not design or install the original system. We simply fixed what was broke and upgraded the controls by adding a Viessmann pump module, additional air vents and correct expansion tanks (all parts by Caleffi). The tube & shell is for high output transfer, usually used in commercial applications. The next system will use Viessmann B-300 tanks, rather than the tube & shell. Ask Hot Rod in a separate post what your design/tech issues are.

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  • Metro Man
    Metro Man Member Posts: 220
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    Gotta love flate plates

    I really like the shot of worker "sitting" on the glass. Can't do that with evac tubes!

    I'm sure you didn't do it and couldn't tell from pics of block but never install ball valve between expansion tanks and plumbing. Saw a system "blow up" at collectors from homeowner shutting off iso valve.

    Nice job!

    Metro Man
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    Huh?

    Where do you see a valve between the system and exp. tanks?

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  • Metro Man
    Metro Man Member Posts: 220
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    glasses

    Guess eye doc was right... time to get glasses. When I first looked at right of auto air vent... looked like ball valve and didn't know if there was check valve between x-tanks in block.

    Opps!

    I to am interested in pro-press, glycol, and high temps. Keep us posted.

    Metro Man
  • Ron Huber_2
    Ron Huber_2 Member Posts: 127
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    Pro press & solar loop

    We have used the pro-press with the standard rings for two years on solar systems (Viessmann) with evacuated tubes, and have not had a problem with the anti-freeze. If we were installing in New Mexico maybe I would change the rings to the higher temp rated ones. We also use the Resol control with overheat and nighttime dump feature. The Resol is used by Caleffi, Viessmann, and others.
  • Drew_2
    Drew_2 Member Posts: 158
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    System Function

    Paul
    Is this a domestic hot water heating system?

    Drew
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    Yes

    The system preheats and supplements the DHW system. Backup is (2) propane 75g commercial water tanks.

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  • Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating
    Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating Member Posts: 1,361
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    we can collect more

    If we utilize the low temps from a radiant system. A small seperate, supplemental radiant panel would be able to lower the tank temps much lower than domestic use can. The Caleffi Solar Catalog says in the winter on a 20 degree day, if we send 160 degree return water back up to the collectors, the collector efficiency is 16%, but if we send 95 degree water back up to the collectors the collectors become 43% efficient. Almost three times as much collection with low temp collection?? Now, 160 for a tank return is high than it might normally be, but 95 degrees is also a little high. With radiant heat we might return 80 or 85 degree water, and with domestic we might normally return 120 to 140 degree water. Would that be about twice as much collection? I could tell my low temp solar space heating system was collecting a lot more heat than my higher temp domestic solar system, but I had no idea that it was that much. We have to work to make these systems better and I think using radiant space heating is a great way to do it.
    Thanks, Bob Gagnon

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  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,158
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    where they're at and

    what you're asking them to do :)

    The lower the return temperature to the collector, and the warmer the temperature where the panel is located, the higher the efficiency.

    Bob, go to the SRCC website and look up the panels, or tubes you have. It will show the output at various operating conditions.

    Notice on the performance graph in I-dronics 3, there comes a point where a plain polymer pool collector out performs both glazed panels and evac tubes.

    At a certain warm weather operating condition, with return temperature at or near the air temperature the glass, or double walled glass in the evac tubes, start to work against you.

    Tune into Siggys webinar, sponsored by Caleffi on May 1 and you will learn some more great tips and methods for crunching the numbers and designing the ideal system for the conditions presented.

    De-mystifing (sp)the numbers and rating methods should assure installers are designing and selling solar in the best possible (sun)light.

    That seminar should break all previous attendence records, It's a very popular and timley topic.

    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Dobber
    Dobber Member Posts: 91
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    Seminar

    Hot Rod
    Do you have an address for the seminar?

    Thanks
    Dobber

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Mike Dunn
    Mike Dunn Member Posts: 189
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    Question for Hot Rod

    Hot Rod

    I signed up for the webinar but have been offered a geo training class on the same day. Is there a way to view the webinar after it's over or can it be emailed to me as a video file?

    Thanks, Mike
  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
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    I'm not HR

    but yes you can view the archived webinar later.

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  • Drew_2
    Drew_2 Member Posts: 158
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    Solar

    Paul
    Thanks for the reply.Brings up another question, Does this sytem yse a double wall heat exchanger to protect the DHW from the antifreeze ?
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    HX

    It uses a tube and shell HX.

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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
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    Finsihed Pic

    Here's the finished installation with insulation completed:

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  • Ron Huber_2
    Ron Huber_2 Member Posts: 127
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    O rings

    Have used the Pro Press On 5 evac tube systems in last 1.5 years and no problems to date using stock O rings, I am in NH and if I were in say, New Mexico, I might change them out to the higher temp rated rings, but I also use the Resol control with the tube function and over heat function, worth it's weight in gold.
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