Residential Boiler / Hot Water System -- Help Please

BigBlueHouse

I see that most of the posts on this forum are to and from people working in the industry. We're just home owners, but we're desperate. We cannot get our boiler system running and we need help!

We've been searching for someone in our area that knows how to work on old hot water systems for over 3 years. We've called everyone we could think of and then some, asked other old home owners around here, talked to every heating & plumbing contractor we could find and in the end we managed to locate only ONE guy who sounded like he knows what he's doing... but we only talked with him once and haven't been able to reach him since. Maybe he moved, maybe he retired... we don't know.

Here's the situation:

Last year a radiator supply pipe had to be moved. Our previous (general) contractor did this work. We never got straight answers on the details of how and what they did. They weren't familiar with hydronic heating systems, but we know the pipe did get moved and reconnected. Not sure if this has any bearing on our current problem, but it's the first time the system was tampered with so I thought I'd mention it.

A new thermostat was installed and a new electrical supply was run to the boiler. However, we couldn't get the boiler to turn on. It would kick on for a second and shut right back off. We thought maybe the thermostat wasn't hooked up properly or that the system was empty because it was drained from when the pipe was moved.

Prior to all of this the system had worked perfectly, no complaints.

When we couldn't get the boiler to turn on we made more phone calls, trying to find someone who could work on it, but no luck. We were on our own in trying to figure this out.

In January of this year we had super cold temps and seven radiators burst (a huge heartbreak for us). Turns out there was water in the system the whole time. This illustrates our ignorance -- we didn't even think about drain valves, we just assumed the system was empty and didn't check. We eventually found them -- AFTER the damage was already done. We appear to be learning things about hot water heating the hard way.

We've spent the last few months removing radiators, replacing burst pipes and elbow joints and getting the system put back together. My husband looked at the thermostat and tightened the connections on the wires.

This week we replaced the last damaged pipe, crossed our fingers, and started filling the system with water. We waited and waited. We could hear the water running into the pipes in the boiler room but none of the radiators were filling up. We weren't sure if the system needed to be closed (it was) or if it needed to be open at some point during filling to let air out. See, we just don't know.

Then the leaks started, dripping out from around a cutoff, the circulator pump, and a pressure gauge that is attached to the main supply line. The face plate of the pressure gauge filled with water and the needle never moved the whole time the system was filling.

We tried to turn the boiler on, to see if it would try to fire up at all and it never did. We adjusted the thermostat six ways from Sunday with no results.

Now the truth is that we really have NO clue what we are doing. We've just trying to use common sense and the little bit of info we've been able to learn online about hydronic heating and electric boilers. We need help.

Our boiler is old, how old I'm not sure. It was made by Precision Part Corporation. I have pictures if that helps. There is no water level or pressure gauge on the boiler itself. We don't know if the boiler has an internal limiter switch that prevents it from cutting on if the pressure or water level is too low. I can provide the specs listed on the faceplate if that helps in some way.

The circulator pump and the pressure reducing value are made by Bell and Gossett. We've never, ever heard the circulator pump run. There is an old, discarded pump of the same model in the boiler room. The one currently hooked up looks new but who knows??

The system used to be gravity fed, but there is no expansion tank attached to the rise in the attic anymore -- we're guessing it was converted to a closed system when the circulator pump was added. There is a big green tank mounted near the ceiling in the boiler room, it's connected to the main supply pipe coming out of the radiator. There are no gauges on the tank.

Like I said, we've just tried to piece together the little bit of information we've been lucky enough to run across in our research. We live in a fairly rural area and no one seems to know anything about these systems anymore, which is pretty surprising considering how many old homes there are in this area.

Our questions are: What do we do since we can't find anyone to work on this? Why won't our boiler turn on? We can replace the pressure gauge, but how full do we fill the system? What PSI should it be at? If we need a new boiler, how on earth are we going to get it installed? How do we tell if we need a new boiler? Why doesn't the circulator pump run?

Ugh... we're so frustrated right now. Obviously most of these questions really need to be answered by an experienced person who's examined everything, but that's not an option we have right now. But if there IS anyone in southwest Virginia or a nearby area, please contact us.

Meanwhile, does anyone have advice?? We would REALLY appreciate some help!

joe_108

boiler

please post photo's of boiler and piping around the boiler itself

BigBlueHouse

boiler

I don't have any of the boiler or the piping at the moment but I will be taking more pictures Tuesday. All I have right now is a photo of the stamped plate.

kpc_18

where are you?

tim smith

Big blue house

I am sure someone here is near enough where you could get them to come out. It may be a whole day to get there and back but that is what sounds like needs to happen. They hopefully can at least assess the repairs needed and direct you accordingly. Good luck

Unknown

Big Blue House, I am sure there

is someone here who can help you. Many of the techs who post here are away at a meeting. Be patient and they will be back soon and someone near you may be able to help. What is your location by the way?

Just based on what you are telling us ut may be less expensive and also resolve your many problems to have a new boiler installed along with some revisions to system piping. Something to think about.

adambuild

!

Where are you located?

BigBlueHouse

changes?

I'm not sure why it would be necessary to change the piping... the system worked GREAT before and had for over a hundred years. Can you explain what type of changes you're talking about? Maybe I'll understand better.

I know that there are now boilers with 90% efficiency, whereas ours is probably 60% at best. We'd like to replace in the near future, but our first preference would be to get this one working for right now.

BigBlueHouse

Location

We're near Radford in southwest Virginia, along the Interstate 81 corridor (otherwise known as the New River Valley).

Roanoke, VA and Bluefield, WV are about 1.5 hours away (in opposite directions). Bristol, TN is about 2 hours away.

Our zipcode is 24301, our area code is 276, if that's helpful anyone.

Unknown

Big Blue House

the changes I was referring to had to do with what you have told us so far:

Big Green Tank is an expansion tank (air cushion tank) which should be replaced by a diaphragm expansion style tank.

You said seven radiators burst, have those been repaired or replaced?

You said you have had numerous leaks in the piping so I figured there would need to be some replacing???

Is this system oil or gas?

What kind of controls on the system make and numbers would help so we can try to troubleshoot for you from a distance.

The pressure should be typically 12 to 14 psi. The boiler is FHW must be completely filled and then you need to bleed the air out.

Go to "Find a Pro" here at this site and post the zip code and see if anyone who posts here is nearby.

BigBlueHouse

leaks / replacing tank

SYSTEM
The boiler is electric. It pulls 145 amps. We upgraded our meter base to 325 and rewired to adequately supply the boiler with it's own panel and disconnect. (When we bought the house it was all knob & tube, rated at 60 amps.)

LEAKS
There are numerous leaks, but not in any of the places we've already worked on. The three leaks we found were in the boiler room. They were at the circulator pump, at the pressure gauge (which is on a nearby pipe, not on the boiler), and at the pressure relief valve, which is also on a nearby pipe. These items may have been damaged during the freeze and need to be replaced. Of course the leaks didn't appear until we tried to fill the system this week.

BURST RADS
The radiators were not replaced (but eventually will be). We removed the damaged rads and right now the pipes to each one are capped (see link to pictures). Several large trunk lines run underneath the first floor, with tees supplying each rad in the house separately. The system does not depend on water continuing on from one radiator to another. Capping should not prevent the flow of water to the working rads.

SPECS & PHOTOS
I posted pictures here:
http://www.imperfectgenius.com/hotwaterheat.html
of the plate on the boiler (that has the specs) and the other components I have photos of right now. I'll be taking more on Tuesday.

Thank you everyone, for giving this your time -- it's genuinely appreciated!!

Mitch_6

If you cannot find a pro in find a pro

you can try the local associations or check with a local supply house for referrals. Most of the countermen know who is on the ball and who is not worth it.

Sometimes it is better to cut it free then re work it I have seen plenty of cases people go through alot of work just to have the boiler spring a leak and be trashed. Some of the utilities have rebate programs also.

Mitch s.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

BigBlueHouse

More Info & Pictures

SYSTEM

The boiler is electric. It pulls 145 amps. We upgraded our meter base to 325 and rewired to adequately supply the boiler with it's own panel and disconnect. (When we bought the house it was all knob & tube, rated at 60 amps.)

LEAKS

There are a couple leaks, but not in any of the places we've already worked on. The three leaks we found were in the boiler room. They were at the circulator pump, at the pressure gauge (which is on a nearby pipe, not on the boiler), and at the pressure relief valve, which is also on a nearby pipe. These items may have been damaged during the freeze and need to be replaced. Of course the leaks didn't appear until we tried to fill the system this week.

BURST RADS

The radiators were not replaced (but eventually will be). We removed the damaged rads and right now the pipes to each one are capped (see link to pictures). Several large trunk lines run underneath the first floor, with tees supplying each rad in the house separately. The system does not depend on water continuing on from one radiator to another. Capping should not prevent the flow of water to the working rads.

SPECS & PHOTOS

I posted pictures here:
Our Hot Water System

of the plate on the boiler (with the specs) and the other components I have photos of right now. I'll be taking more on Tuesday.

FINDING HELP

Thank you for the suggestions on finding help. We have tried asking everywhere -- plumbing & heating supply stores, all the businesses and organizations listed in the phone book or online directories under anything related to plumbing or heating, and yes, we've entered in our zipcode (and nearby zipcodes) and searched for a professional online.

After chasing down every lead we could find, we came up with nothing (except a call from Sears, wanting to sell us a heat pump, and a plumber in WV we talked with once who must have since moved). If there are folks in our area willing to work on these systems, well... we can't find them! Believe me, it's been extremely frustrating to have no one to call. I never, ever would have thought we'd run into this problem.

THANK YOU everyone, for giving this your time -- it's appreciated very much!!

BigBlueHouse

Expansion tanks / bleeding the system

Tim, can you explain more about the different tanks? I posted a picture of ours here:
Pictures

Also, what does "FHW" mean? My brain is moving slow today, please forgive me if it's something obvious.

When we bleed the air, is that done primarily through the air vent on each radiator or is there another part of the system we need to pay attention to? As the radiators, where do we start -- the one closest to the boiler or the farthest away? I've been told both ways, so I'm not sure what is correct.

Thanks!

Unknown

FHW stands for

Forced Hot Water which is the type of system you have.

To bleed the air out of the system you must have radiators and piping in place. A simple explanation is that you are allowing city water pressure into your boiler by temporarily opening up the pressure reducing valve (red Bell and Gosset thing on the pipe) you will need a pressure gauge so you do not blow the relief valve which opens and relieves at about 30 pounds pressure. Let the system get up to about 25 pounds pressure. Somewhere on the return piping coming back to the boiler there should be some water valves which will accept a regular garden hose attach the hose and open the valve and let the water run out until it runs steady and is not spitting and spurting air. Close the valve and reduce the pressure back to 12 to 14 pounds pressure.

Then goe to the radiators and bleed them off one at a time.

I am trying to make it as simple as I can but as you know a real pro is needed. There are not a lot of pro's who realy work on electric boilers. They should however still be able to service the system and boiler. I really can't believe there is no one in your area that could do this something is definitely wrong with this picture.

BigBlueHouse

bleeding air, filling the system

Thank you again Tim!

We are replacing the pressure gauge and the relief valve, both of which were leaking.

I grasp the theory of how a FHW system works, but I don't know the details, such as pressure levels. Thank you for helping with that. I want to make sure I understand your info right -- let me know if I got anything wrong. I also have a few questions, I hope you'll bear with me.

We start filling the system, letting pressure reach about 25 pounds. At that point we cut off the city water supply and let water drain back out until the water runs smoothly with no air spitting out.

Question: You said, "Close the valve and reduce pressure back to 12 to 14". How do we reduce pressure after closing the valve?

After the pressure reaches 12-14, we start bleeding the radiators one at a time. This is done with the boiler off -- it isn't turned on until the system is filled and the air is out.

Question: We read a suggestion to wire the circ pump so it can be turned on (with the boiler staying off) in order to help push water & air through the system as the radiators are being bled. What is your opinion on this?

Question: I know that it may take several times of bleeding each radiator to get all the air out of the system. I'm assuming pressure will drop after each major bleed and our goal is to keep the pressure at 12-14 pounds, so do we add water after bleeding?

I appreciate your patience! Hey, I've been there -- I've spent hours trying to explain allergen-free cooking, web design, restaurant management, or any number of other topics I have years of experience with. This just happens to be a topic I don't know much about, but with help I'm learning! Thanks!

BigBlueHouse

reducing pressure

I wrote: "Question: You said, "Close the valve and reduce pressure back to 12 to 14". How do we reduce pressure after closing the valve?"

I think I just answered one of my own question. You were talking about setting the pressure on the Pressure Reducing Valve back to 12-14. I thought you were referring to the drain valve somehow. I was trying to figure out how to *release* pressure on the system if the drain valve was closed. (duh) I've got it now!

Unknown

Slight correction

We start filling the system, letting pressure reach about 25 pounds. At that point we cut off the city water supply and let water drain back out until the water runs smoothly with no air spitting out. DO NOT CUT OFF WATER JUST DROP PRESSURE BEING FEED THROUGH THE PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE.

Question: We read a suggestion to wire the circ pump so it can be turned on (with the boiler staying off) in order to help push water & air through the system as the radiators are being bled. What is your opinion on this? DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BLEED SYSTEM WITH CIRCULATOR RUNNING JUST USE CITY WATER PRESSURE.

Question: I know that it may take several times of bleeding each radiator to get all the air out of the system. I'm assuming pressure will drop after each major bleed and our goal is to keep the pressure at 12-14 pounds, so do we add water after bleeding? THE PRESSURE SHOULD NOT DROP AS THE PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE WILL KEEP IT AT 12 TO 14 AND YOU LEAVE THE CITY WATER FEED ON. IF THE PRESSURE DROPS SLIGHTLY THE PRV SHOULD BRING IT RIGHT BACK UP.

I AM USED TO TEACHING PEOPLE AS THAT IS WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING.

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Gas Appliance Service Training & Consulting and

Gas Training Institute (338 Metacom Ave., Warren, RI)

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