WM Ultra, Boiler Loop Question

Darin Cook_5

I was just trying to get some facts pertaining to your situation.
I do not know what state you live in but here in my part of Upstate NY it is the wildwest when it comes to heating contractors. A customer just assumes that X, Y, or Z heating companies are all the same, will do the same quality install, and have the same knowledge level. You are dealing with an industry where many businesses do not know how to price their contracts/heating installations based upon their cost of doing business. I can understand that it is hugely frustrating to find all this out after the fact.

You can imagine how very frustrating it is to a business that follows all the rules, stays technically advanced and in constant education/training, provides outstanding, superior craftsmanship, and pays THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars in insurance costs, marketing costs and all the rest that goes with it. To lose it to some jack-**** that because he owns a screwdriver, hammer, and bought some magnetics for the truck - he is now a heetin guy. Believe me, I understand your frustration!


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Reynz_2

Boiler Loop

My HVAC tech installed my Ultra in Nov 2003 with primarily copper pipe in the boiler loop, and also a section of Iron pipe in the loop. It is rusting. Does the manuel or common practice tell one not to do this????

Rudnae

rust needs oxygen...

If your system is showing signs of decay due to rust, then there is a problem. I wouldn't worry about the disimilar metals as much as where is the oxygen coming from. Typically it is due to a leak somewhere in the system allowing fresh water to enter your system. It is at that point that the rusting begins to happen. I would advise that you get your HVAC contractor back for a service call to have a look at your system before anything else begins to happen. When was the last time your system was serviced? With the aluminum heat exchanger in your boiler I would think that you would want to at least check the ph of the water once a year.

Reynz_2

It has been serviced yearly, and each HVAC tech mentions, there is a problem. Finally one came out yesterday and said iron pipe should not have been used on the boiler loop, and also located an iron cap on the bottom, within the boiler compartment, where a galvanised one, he said, should have been used. I think my argument for him to repipe it will be that iron should not have been used in a condensing boiler loop, and also, an iron cap should not have been used on the bottom within the compartment. What do you think???

Rudnae

I think that 4 1/2 years is a long time to wait...

That being said... It is quite common to see multiple types of materials used in boiler systems. That in and of itself is not the issue. What have these techs been telling you is the problem and what does your installer think about what they have to say. Why is your service tech different from your installer? Were there some other issues? I am not too sure what the cap is used for but galvanize won't give you much more protection than plain iron. I don't want to seem argumentative here, but I really think that there is another issue here aside from the disimilar metals. Just my 0.02.

Reynz_2

You have got that right. There are multiple issues, starting in Nov 2003.

WM Ultra installed Nov 2003 without second circulator, no boiler loop, no P/S piping. So, a multitude of problems. heat overrun, air in baseboard rads for over two months, with just about weekly bleeding.

Secondly, installer came back, at my insisting and repiped. He piped it was a warming loop, like the irob boilers had, and told me the boiler loop needed to be kept at over 140 to prevent condensation. I thought it was a condensing boiler???? Had to get WM involved with this one.

Third, came back the third time to repipe boiler finally the way the book described. It has been running like a champ. Unfortunately the interaction between the HVAC installer and I was so difficult that I swore never to use him again. So, I hired another company to fix leaks that remained in the copper pipe (originally installer ran out of gas, and the pipe remained leaking).

Also noticed at that time (8 months after original installation) that a joint from copper to iron on the boiler loop was leaking. It did so during the summer months when the boiler went cold.

It has been serviced yearly, and once again, a HVAC tech who looked at it yesterday said iron should not have been used on the boiler look, it should have been copper. This is my last big push to get the originaly installer to finally (I MEAN FINALLY) give me the product I purchased.

The iron pipe is now rusted, corrosion is creaping up the copper pipe and the estimate I received for repair was $1100. I think the original installer should repipe it.

This is the closest I've come in almost 50 years to filing a lawsuit..... Enough is probably enought. I've called the owner of the original installer and asked him to personally come and look at the boiler. I want to give him the opportunity to correct the problem before I move to the next step.... Ugh! This has been a nightmare.
Your thought?

Reynz_2

Just got a call

The owner of the company will be here tomorrow... What do you think he will say?

Darin Cook_5

?

What influenced your decision, five years ago, to use this contractor?

Was it price, experience, service, warranty guarantee ?

How much experience did the company have?

Were any pictures shown to you of other installations done by this company?

As far as mixing iron/steel with copper, it is done all the time. That by itself, in a sealed hydronic heating system will not make anything leak under normal operating conditions. There are alot of iron/steel accessories that get piped into heating systems everyday.

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Reynz_2

What influenced your decision, five years ago, to use this contractor?

Was it price, experience, service, warranty guarantee?

How much experience did the company have?

Where any pictures shown to you of other installations done by this company?

Ok, I know, I know, you get what you pay for, and yes, it was price. The only thing going for them was they were a WM authorized installer.... They have been around for 25 years.

Reynz_2

None Taken

Thanks for listening.... What a pain in the neck this has been.... It has been a nightmare...... Anyway, let's see what happens tomorrow when the owner comes over..... I'll let you know.

nosirra1Arrison

Exact same issue

Reynz,
My Ultra has both copper and black iron in the boiler loop. I had a leaking black iron to black iron connection. Caused a rusty stain at the point of leakage.

The main concern is that where that leak is, air is ENTERING your system. Normally your boiler water is not exposed to any new outside air. The original water fill becomes less oxygenated over time since the loop is what is known as a closed (not exposed to outside air). You have a break in that closed system and the oxygen that is leaking in will cause rust, sediment from rust scale, and component failure (circulators, valves, etc.).

It's not a big deal to fix. Just make sure you eliminate the leakage and get a fresh start with clean water and then do not add water or change it out after that. You are really just catching a problem before it becomes more of a problem. This is a simple fix and it will be a good test of your new service tech.

Good luck and keep asking questions. That's how we all learned.

nosirra1

Mitch_6

Has anyone checked the plugs on the block for leaking

Ultras of about that age had plugs used in the production that leaked and you can get air in there. Have someone take the cover off and check the plugs. For a while WM recommended use of a permitex they have a kit now.

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Tony_23

Leaks and rust and iron

I've piped most of the Ultras I've done with iron for the boiler loop. It's not an issue. What is an issue is the leak(s).

The leak doesn't let air or O2 in, they let the water out and the resultant pressure drop causes the fill valve to refill the system with fresh water, along with its attendant fresh oxygen.

The leak that "only leaks in the summer" is a leak ALL the time. It merely evaporates in the heating season when the water and piping is warm.

nosirra1Arrison

Air in makeup water

Tony,

Thank you for the info. It makes sense that the fresh O2 is coming from the makeup water.

nosirra1