dazed and confused

Frank_56

I think this helps answer my question about boiler sizing. Am I correct in that with an indirect the boiler can more closely match the actual heat loss calc, but with a combi the boiler needs to be oversized because of the DHW load?

Frank_56

indirect or combo, 180 or 160

I am trying to plan ahead and find myself getting more confused the more I dig. I have a Trianco Heatmaker HW-M2-130, that is about 15 years old and has worked surprisingly well except for the control sensors/switches I need to replace almost yearly it seems. I have had to become somewhat of an expert on the unit because no one wants to work on it in this part of Massachusetts.

I have a 15 year old, self-designed home that is well built and insulated, about 1700 sq ft. The Heatmaker is gas and does everything including DHW. I have fin and tube baseboard, 2 zone heating, 2 floors. I know the Trianco won't last forever, and sooner or later something that I won't want to work on will need fixing, so I am doing my research now so I can make good decisions. There are also currently some gas company rebates available that might make me jump before something breaks, IF I knew what I wanted.

The dilemma is that it only costs me about $1200 a year for all my natural gas usage, which is the envy of everyone I know. The heatmaker calculates to be 82% efficient so I want to go up from there. My HVAC guy, who won't work on my Trianco, will install anything I want of any brand. He tells me that my choices are the "older" 180 degree type system, like my Trianco, or a condensing 160 degree system, and believes that I have enough baseboard surface area to accommodate that. He will calculate before I jump down that route. The heat loss calculation he has already done shows 41,600 BTUH, which of course doesn't include the DHW need.

Of the condensing boilers I have studied I am drawn to the Triangle Tube choices, but have no idea what 180 degree boiler I should be looking at, if any. Furthermore, and probably the main question, is whether to look for another combo unit or go with an indirect hot water tank as he suggests. I am scared to death of spending a ton of money and then finding my operating costs to be higher than they are now. Storing hot water just in case you might need it seems like a waste to me given delta T heat losses no matter how good the insulation is on the tank. If I wasn't an engineer skilled in heat and mass transfer I would probably not have the concerns I have, but I am so I do.

Any thoughts, comments, or ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

jp_2

triangle tube

mini smart.

no need for a tank. I see no reason you should be considering a cast iron 82% eff boiler here. 90% of the time you can run on lower water temps.

Frank_56

Thanks jp

I like the way you think. I hadn't seen that option, they have it well hidden except in the literature section.

I suppose feeding that with something like a Prestige Solo 110 would work pretty well???

Derheatmeister

What ?????

Lee_8

on but off topic

RE: Been Dazed and Confused for so long it's not true.
....
Flew United a couple weeks ago. The had a Led Zep audio channel on the head sets.

Frank_56

Derheatmeister - Would you care to expound on your "what"?

Lee - Yeah, Led Zep, great group.

Jim_65

Frank

I agree with jp...and for Derheatmeister ???

I know that I will get some flack for this but if you can wait for a wee bit more the good folks at Triangle Tube are going to introduce a combi unit...It is essentially a Solo 110 (slightly larger cabinet) with a 14 gallon indirect fired (tank-in-a-tank) water heater built into it...Model #PE 110.

Good luck!

Frank_56

Thanks Jim

I appreciate the input and the heads-up. The beauty of planning ahead is that I am in no real hurry. The only real pressure is the current $1000 rebate on any 90% or higher AFUE boiler from the gas company, but there is no expiration date listed so it should be on for a while.

I want to do this as right as I can, and I don't mind spending money to get that result, but I would hate to spend any amount of money and not like the result. I also don't want my wife to stab me in my sleep. Do you expect that unit will be out within a few months?

I have to admit that I am surprised. I have spent a LOT of time searching the info on this site, having been directed to it by my HVAC guy who knows I like to thoroughly research things. I was sure that everyone would tell me to go the separate indirect route. Given the good performance I have had with my Heatmaker I am kind of partial to a combi, or the flash tank idea that jp mentioned. Good performance, efficiency, and less complexity appeals to me.

Could someone please tell me why my needs seem appropriate for a combi or a flash tank when I haven't seen a lot of that recommended here?

This is an excellent website thanks to all the great people willing to share info.

Jim_65

??

Well I guess if space consideration is an issue you really can't go wrong with a wall hung mod-con. I guess that is why I continued to take you down that path after jp threw it out there. These units that I referred to are supposedly going to be available mid to latter part of April...although that could be tekmar time...J/J. That's why I said I could be jumping the gun by even putting it out there.

I also agree with the HVAC guy who sent you here. I go with indirects almost always. But when jp mentioned the mini-smart idea I wouldn't rule that out either. The main thing is that they top out at like 3 gpm and wouldn't be something I would use if you have a major dump load to consider. To answer your question "It depends". What are your loads, usage and expectations? Again you may get three different opinions on the correct approach from three different contractors.

Your wife stabbing you is another thread entirely.

I must go now...the NCAA tournament is starting soon and I need to see who is going to make it for me to watch down in San Antonio.

Take care & good luck!

jp_2

with a 41,000 btu heating

load.

I understand triangle tube is coming out with a 10,000 - 50,000 btu boiler. along with a small indirect might be your better solution.

i like the idea of the flash tank and solar preheat.

Frank_56

Thanks again

I have no space issues, plenty of room in the basement. I DO like the small footprint of my Trianco but I can always move or throw away a few boxes of crap I have accumulated to make room for an indirect. I would say move, but my wife would say throw away.

I don't know what my Trianco is rated at for DHW supply but we have never had any problem with hot water, even with consecutive showers and the washing machine running, or my wife using hot water in the kitchen. This is even true in the middle of our New England Winters and the heat on, and yes, I know DHW takes priority but I have never felt the baseboard go cold. I lose pressure because I have the supply regulated down to 60 psi from 95, and then a whole house filter, but never lose hot water. It is just my wife and I, and the cats, but the cats don't like water, hot or cold.

3 gpm sounds low so I will have to calibrate what comes out of my flow-restricted showerhead, with and without other things drawing on the hot water supply. My main concerns are enough heat, enough hot water, and I don't want my natural gas costs to rise. Any purchase and installation costs are really secondary.

I have never liked the idea of storing hot water, at least not in large quantities. I know the Trianco has a small tank, something around 10 gallons or so I believe, maintained at 140 degrees, but I am very pleased with the system efficiency. Some type of on demand system just seems to make more sense to me.

I could be convinced to go the indirect route, in which case I would probably want the best insulated one available, but besides the cost to heat and store the water I would need to take into consideration recovery time, which is not a concern with on demand systems.

But that is why I am asking all you experts on your experiences and thoughts. As an engineer I know that the real world isn't always what the books say. I want to do this once, and only once, at least for as far as I can see.

Tony_23

Trianco misconception

It's pretty common for people to think the tank in a Heatmaker is domestic storage, but it is not. The tank is 20 gallons of heating system water, used as a buffer tank. The DHW is provided through a coil immersed in that tank. Essentially, the tank is maintained 24/7/365 via the low limit strapped onto the outlet of the DHW coil. If it was installed correctly, it should have a 4 GPM flow restrictor in line. It resembles a brass 1/2" swaged coupling.

Personnally, I think the MiniSmart is too small for most households, as is the new combi unit's DHW "tank". I would use either a Smart 30 w/ a tempering valve or a Smart 40. If you don't want storage, use a brazed plate HX.

The T-T Prestige Solo 110 is an excellent choice, BTW. I'm installing my 1st, and have been to the factory, and am more impressed than I've been with anything else in a long time.

Derheatmeister

About the \"What\"???

Agree to Zep! just read this over lunch and had to LOL about becomming a expert in " Changing the parts on the "Heatmaker"! then i had to run on a call!
I also became a Little "Daze and Confused" over the Post..

Fin Type Baseboard? How many Lin Foot?

Hi or Low Output?(550 or 880 btu per Lin @ 180F).. 75 feet or 47feet or more??
1700Sqft with 2 zones ..why only 2 zones ?

Seems like you need 24 btus/Sqft? not that thigh of a haus!


"He tells me that my choices are the "older" 180 degree type system, like my Trianco, or a condensing 160 degree system"


Condensing is up to approx 140 F ! not 160 F !


I hear the the NEW "Heatmaker" is still avaible. if you are that good with it.. not that this will ever be some thing that i will install!!!! Removed and scraped many!

BTW Triangle is a Great Boiler! got many great Installs.and a good track record..
MAYBE, Yours can Condens Too!??! not sure!
mini smart may be good too.or the prestige excellence. or the Baxi luna with the Modulo ,How many bathrooms or GPM ?

Just a little Confused About :" If I wasn't an engineer skilled in heat and mass transfer I would probably not have the concerns I have, but I am so I do." ;-) Heatmeister

Frank_56

Thanks Tony

I was aware that the Trianco tank just served as a heat exchanger for the DHW. I just used that as an example of a conflict with the aversion I have for maintaining a temperature on some stored water. I am also familiar with the low limit, I had to replace it this year. I have the immersion type not the strap-on.

I did not know that it was 20 gallons though, but that is still less that heating an indirect with say 40 gal. I also didn't know that the system was 4 GPM. I believe that I have seen the restrictor you mention.

I am also starting to think that the mini-smart at 3 GPM will be too small. I am also wondering if a Solo 110 might be too big for optimum efficiency, even though my Trianco is 130 BTUH. I need to figure out what the DHW demand has to do with the total BTUs needed, but it sounds like with an indirect the boiler size can be smaller than with a combi.

Frank_56

answers

Thanks, but another Heatmaker is not in my future. I didn't become an "expert" by choice, just because we wanted heat and hot water. I have been grateful that the problems have all been controls that have been easily jumped out for testing.

Let me explain my engineer comment. I am early-retired from an engineering career where I lived with Physics every day in a manufacturing environment. I spent a lot of time dealing with the properties of air as well as heat transfer in general. Since I know there is no such thing as a perfect insulator in the real world I can't help but think of the dollars involved when I look at a tank of heated water that needs to be maintained at a temperature, all the while the heat is escaping.

Since daily usage of DHW is only about 2 hours I think of the other 22 where I would be just keeping it hot in case I want to use it. Just seems like a waste to me, if it can be avoided. Even indirects that lose 1 degree an hour cause a need of 22 degrees of x gallons to be reheated. I may not be able to get away from it, but that is my starting position.

My house is a Cape style, 2 floors, 1 zone each floor. 2 full bathrooms with showers. The floor plan is very open so more zones didn't make sense. I have to mention that most of the time the upstairs heat is off because we like it cool in the bedroom. It is actually only on for about a month in the middle of our winter, and even then the thermostat is set at 65. We have a lot of windows in the house, and 2 big skylights upstairs. As long as there is sun out my heating system gets a break. Downstairs thermostat is usually set at a comfortable 68.

We have fiberglass batt insulation everywhere, between the basement and the first floor, between the first and the second floors, R19 outside walls, R30 overhead. Good windows, no drafts anywhere, all things caulked, and all pipes with pipe insulation. The $1200 yearly natural gas bill includes cooking too.

I assume the baseboard is low output, it is just the standard stuff I see at the home supply centers. I measured it this morning and I have 97 feet. There is also a toe kick heater in the kitchen under the sink cabinet. Just a small HX with a squirrel cage fan. I also have 4 ceiling fans to help keep things distributed and uniform, 2 first floor and 2 on the second.

The baseboard is installed a little differently on each floor. Downstairs it has just the single copper pipe with the fins, starting in the kitchen and running the perimeter of the house, back to the starting room which is right over the boiler. The first thing that sees the boiler water is the kick heater. Upstairs, the piping goes up in the bathroom which is in the middle of the floor plan, then butterflies out to the side rooms and returns to the bathroom, so each baseboard has 2 copper pipes but only 1 has fins.

My comment on the 160 vs the 180 was based on the conversation with my HVAC guy. He told me the real savings with the new boilers comes from being able to heat the house with 160 degree water in place of the 180 now used. He is also interested in the baseboard footage to see if there is enough to allow the usage of lower temp water. He talked about the outdoor sensor to provide reset too. He has installed all the major brands of boilers but pointed me to Triangle Tube because he likes the design. I have also looked at Buderus and Viessmann. I do know that if I buy a mod-con I want the HX to be SS not aluminum.

I think that answers all the questions you had, looking forward to your thoughts.

Ron Gillen

Indirect Standby Losses

To address your concerns of standby losses with an indirect, The Viessmann Vitocell looses less than 5,000 BTU/Day. That's less than five minutes run time of the Vitodens. Pretty insignificant in comparison to heating load and DHW production.

Frank_56

Thanks Ron

As I read the literature that spec is if located in a room that is 68 deg F. My basement is much colder than that so the delta T is higher, resulting in more loss.

Derheatmeister

Frank. not to ignore...194 lin feet and other of your postings are positive...seems like you can also conserve energy too! and will be smart about it !
Cooking on gas is great!
Modcons could be a good thing, but.. also find someone that will support you locally with everything!

Even after the install ... knowledge of die Viessmanns ..,Which can be also a very positive thing !!


Do not understand butter flying out (is this bull heading ?) or the no fin situations ...maybe some additional rads to lower the temps?... Maybe you can experiment with the "old" Boiler first? i.e. Lower the Max supply temp and see how your home reacts to this!

And for the time of the making of the dwelling ,its a pretty ok House.

And your concerns!
Do not have all the answers now,I Like Viessmann!,Baxi and triangles prestige,
Had a long day ,will check in tomorrow.
Richard for Heatmeister... End of telegramm.....

Tony_23

Frank

The Solo 110 is all you need, and then some. It modulates down to 30,000. Modulation, in my experience, saves more than condensing.
It fires at 100%, to setpoint limit, on a call for DHW. Quick recovery. Don't worry about storing 30 or 40 gallons in an indirect, you're splitting hairs over a miniscule operating cost differential. Mine doesn't seem to run w/o us using hot water at each end of the day. The option is a high output brazed plate heat exhanger triggered by a flow switch.

Derheatmeister

As per the Aluminium...

I am a Stainless guy, especially after seeing some rather nasty Aluminium Oxidized Heatexchangers. Just do not want to have to "Worry" about this kinda stuff..also the System fluid story is something that is very sensitive i.e. PH/ Treatment/Glycol and the maintaining thereof. sorry about the "Dazed" Post last night i was rather tied... hope some of this will help..Heatmeister..

Frank_56

Definitely not aluminum

The one thing I know is that I want SS. I am surprised that some companies use aluminum. In the chemical plant where I worked we used SS for everything, some 304 but mostly 316. We didn't want the headaches, and I don't want them now.

Butterflying was the term that the plumber that did the install used. Since the supply and the return to and from the second floor is the same chase he had to bring the return from each room back through the baseboard, parallel to the supply which has the fins. The return is just the return, no fins, although it clearly still has some heat to give up. The front of my house on the second floor has a knee wall so there is no baseboard there, and it is not possible to loop the perimeter as on the first floor.

Frank_56

Tony...

The idea of a stand-alone HX is starting to appeal to me. I have a lot of experience with them from my working days. They work great as long as they are sized correctly.

Can you, or anyone, tell me why more system installs don't use a separate HX for DHW? Is it cost of the units? It seems like the perfect way to get all the DHW one needs without having to store it.

Derheatmeister

Lower temps?

Now i understand. the returns are in the Baseboard.(Upstairs)..
Yes, I used to weld SS also with the TIG.. On German Photo proccesing equipment.Loved it..

The Viessmanns exchanger is just Great...
Also the Triangle is made of 439..
How about you Average Outdoor temp Now?
Can you adjust you max supply temp down Just for a couple days to see if you house will stay comfortable with lower supply temps of the boiler...
Your unit could condens! but for a couple days that should be OK.. Just a easy way to check if you have enough Emitters I sometimes do some Data logging to exsisting deteriorating systems Prior to the redo i.e the lower temp/ room temp/ outdoor temp. measurement.Heatmeister..

Floyd_50

Can you imagine...

Trying to sell the average HO (homeowner) that they are going to get enough hot water from the chunk of S/S??? Then there is the water temp. issues... as I see it you would then need to make sure that the mixing valve is installed and operating correctly...just not as much forgiveness there as there is with the DHW tank which buffers the temps. and negates the need for the mixing valve in parts of the country where it is not code.
Another thing... not sure that those Al HX are a fragile as you think... have had some running in very harsh AG conditions for five years with no problems...and from your background I'm sure that you realize that the heat transfer is way better with AL than with S/S... there's always a trade off, or all boiler companies would have the same stuff..everyone has a different axe to grind.. :-)

Just my .02 cents...

Floyd

Frank_56

Interesting

It was a photog company I worked for, the negative manufacturing division. Everything has to be sterile or we were out of business, which is of course the other reason for SS. Everything was gelatin based, and "bugs" love gel. High temps were the order of the day, hence my HX experience. We had heat exchangers bigger than me, and I am NFL linebacker sized.

Your experiment sounds like a great idea, but I don't think I can turn down my Heatmaker from the 180 degrees. I will check. The outdoor temp today is 40 degrees F, but the sun has been great. My heat was on first thing this morning but I don't think it has run since.

One issue I do have is that my main occupied space on the first floor is the last place the loop goes through before it returns to the boiler. I usually throttle down the flaps on the baseboard at the other end of the house to cut down on the heat transfer, and allow the supply to stay a little hotter to the end of the run. I am planning to add about another 8' or so of baseboard to that open room when I change the boiler, just to help out the distribution. I could reverse the flow but then the bathroom would be near the end, and that is where I really like heat, especially in the morning.

This issue has made me wonder if we could be still comfortable with a lower supply temp, which is why part of my initial question was about 180 degree systems. We don't have many days with single digit temperatures and no sun, but when we do my system is running way more than it is off to get to house temp and maintain. I use setback thermostats and if I let the temp fall to around 60 or so at night it takes forever for it to get back up to 68, it seems. Maintaining is easier, but not as good as when the sun is bright of course. As I said though, single digit days are very rare, and when it is that cold I don’t let it drop to 60 anymore.

Your business approach to data logging is a great one. As a Process Engineer we used to data log everything we could get our hands on. Data provides power for decisions. That is the main reason I am picking all your brains. All your experiences, knowledge, and willingness to share can only help me make the best decisions. I am grateful to all, the discussions have been great so far.

Frank_56

Good point Floyd,

but I am not afraid of that chunk of SS. System design would have to be good. Here in Mass. there are lots of codes anyway, so I am sure those things are required.

I understand the difference with aluminum and heat transfer, but for long-term maintenance issues it sure seems like SS with proper sizing would be the way to go, even with the extra cost. I like things to be as trouble free as possible, and in fact my HVAC guy almost convinced me to not consider a modcon because of the extra maintenance issues. I would enjoy it if it were things I could do myself though.

Your thoughts help explain why a company like Buderus uses Al though. I appreciate your 2 cents, and it is worth more than that.

Derheatmeister

It sounds like you may want to Upgrade some of you heat emitters to some European Panel radiator style emitters it's not too much work to do this upgrade,Check out Buderus has some called "Solidoflux" it has a "Bypassvalve" you will not need to run back thru the rads and it will give off some serious BTU Per sqft..Or Myson. Or Runtal has the "UF-2 or Uf-3 series which will give you approx 770 btus per lin at 180..
If you want to take advantage of the Condensing of these boilers...you will "Oversize" these Rads.

At this point you can make your system a continious circ system that will turn on the Circ Base on the Outdoor reset, and then the rads that have they're own Thermostatic heads will just "siphon" off as many BTU's off as they require at any given point..
It may sound Expensive and like lots of Work but it's not too bad. And the comfort level and longevity of the Hardware is also unsurpassed.

Think towel rack.Richard..

Floyd_50

Your HVAC guy...

doesn't have a problem with the maintenance issues, he has a problem with what he doesn't know....
If installed correctly and taken care of reasonably "some" modcon's will take up no more of your time or anybody else's than any other boiler out there. I have had a Ultra in my house since they came out, five years or more have lost track, have never done anything other than look in while it's burning and I can see clearly that there is no build up in there, pulling the condensate hose off the bottom to check for crap has given me nothing more than a milky water to clean up. Like I said before I intentionally sold a few Ultra's to pig barn operation's which ran 24/7/365 mostly at high fire. They also paid for themselves in MONTHS!! Only problems were LP gas bubbles (air in the line) and electrical problems from being in the middle of nowhere PA.
Now, I did install a couple of boilers in a cooler, before the Ultra's came on the scene and they DO take a bit more baby sitting... BTW they have S/S HX, but I think the design has more to do with their problems.

OK .02 cents worth..

Floyd