Am I out of touch with reality?

bob young

AND if you just happen to burn your house down remember you are the amatuer " plumber " who has no liability insurance or license so your home owners policy just might not cover the loss. when you work with a torch, sh**t happens. a word to the wise is sufficient. a lic. plbr.

Howard Emerson

Plumbing labor costs....slightly OT, sorry.

Hi all,
In a previous life I used to build custom bathrooms, and although I was slow, I was thorough and only did one job at a time. I did all my own cabinetry, tile, carpentry, design, but used licensed plumbers and electricians.

I just was not cut out to work with the public in that fashion.........too nerve wracking for me and I took things way too personally. I'm better with a guitar in my hands in front of an audience.........

So we just had our own bathroom ripped out and I'm getting estimates for a few plumbing items.

1.Set 60" X 32" shower base and connect drain. Drain is accessible from below, via ladder, in open basement ceiling.
2.Cut and move sink drain and supplies about 12" from current location. Walls are all open, by the way. Install new supply stops.
3.Install shower control, hand held hose outlet and shower head outlet.
4.Install new supply for toilet.

We're supplying everything except for PVC fittings for the drains.

I will set the toilet, sink, and finished shower control, hand-held, shower head, etc.

So why would one of the most famous elder statesmen in US history quote me (in person, in writing) $1942.00?

In my somewhat feeble memory, this is about a 3-4 hour job, max, 1 man.

Am I out of touch? Fire away.........

Josh_10

I don't think he is at all. Sounds right in there with the national average. BTW, it is a full days work any way you slice it.

Timco

Although price is usually not discussed here, what did the other 3 estimates you got say? Surely the guy on the $100 is not the only plumber in your area...if this is your own home, a plumbing 'how to' book should be able to walk you through a pretty simple job. You may find great satisfaction as I do in doing this yourself for the cost of parts and maybe a new tool or 2...

Tim

Howard Emerson

Hi Tim,
Yes, I certainly understand about price not being discussed, hence my veiled reference to the reference........:-)

It's the first estimate so far, and frankly after reading about their tactics on a bunch of internet 'reviews', I was somewhat skeptical, but I saw them working at a neighbor's house recently, so I figured 'Why not?'.

As far as 'how to' books go: I know how to do many things, some very well, but there are certain things I'd rather pay fairly for, than have my wife yelling at me due to errant water.

The second estimate will be later today by the guy whose firm did most of my bathroom work, so that's when I'll know what reality is closer to.

I will, however, practice my soldering and sort out my Fernco's...........:-)

Thanks for the replies!

P.D.Q. Bach

Labor and operating costs have gotten out of hand for many reasons. Partly it's what makes America great: you have a flat-screen TV, your plumber has a flat-screen TV. But this is also why places like Home Depot make money selling vast quantities of low-quality DIY tools and materials.

Legal and illegal immigration have kept labor costs lower than they would be otherwise in many markets, but not so much in things like plumbing where longer training and the ability to 'sell' a job in English are required. You may still see a distinct difference in charges based on ethnicity.

If you can do it yourself, you should. If you cannot, you have to pay market rates. If the prices are really too high for people, then no one will pay and your plumber won't get the flatscreen TV. But presumably that is not happening.

Howard Emerson

Hey PD,
I read you loud and clear: I'm in the process of finding out what the market is these days, and several estimates are in order, for sure.

I just may bite down hard and do it myself if I can 'bear' the sense of pride more than the fear of failure while waiting to turn on the main.......

HE

Timco

There is a way to do this yourself correctly with confidence. Read about the procedure for sweating copper and buy a full length with a pack of 90's so you can practice. Just don't heat it too much...You should change your attitude to you absolutely CAN do this safely and correct. I would not suggest you start with gas lines, but properly sweated copper is something most do it yerselfers can do just fine!

Tim

Unknown

I`m sure

you`ll be fine Howard, Good Luck.
BTW- You pic a mean guitar!

Dave

Howard Emerson

Thanks for the push to be more confident, Tim! I did cut the supply lines to the old shower head and sweated on the caps. I reamed, brushed, I fluxed, I heated, I flowed.........It held.

It looks like hell, though...........but your advice is duly noted and although I'm not a cheapskate, I might give it a go.

Old galvanized drain pipe and a fresh Sawzall blade should help get me started. Wish I had a Milwaukee instead of my Porter Cable, though: The Porter is the 'bull in a China shop', whereas the Milwaukee is so much smoother.

Thanks again.

HE

Timco

A cut off grinder or portable band saw is the smoothest way to cut it, but a fresh sawzall blade will do well as well. As to the copper, just heat enough to get the solder flowing...long before the copper changes color. Just a little dab of solder will do it, and if it starts dripping, you have applied more than needed. Do not over flux either. The solder will follow the flux as it runs down the pipe. With a bit of practice, you will sweat sweet! Be sure all water is drained out of the lines...let them drain completely and stop dripping for easiest job.

Tim

mtfallsmikey

Well Howard,

I'm sorry about the sticker shock...having spent 25 yrs. or so working in my own mechanical contracting biz as well as Dad's, I can tell you overhead has gone out of sight, things like health, liability, commercial vehicle insurance, business licenses, etc. have virtually tripled in the 10 yrs. that I have been away from things. I used to GC a lot of bath remodels, like you, but got frustrated by the un-reliabity of my subs, and wound up doing a lot of it myself. If you don't want to solder, use crimp PEX, or Sharkbite-Tektite fittings. HD handles those...and, don't forget CPVC...good luck from mfm.

kevin_58

In my opinion i think the price is ok. In setting the shower base it should be set in structolite witch takes more time, I would never set a base without it. Also the supply stops and escussions are installed after the walls are finished thats another stop out. Is the sink a pedistal or a vanity it makes a differance.

Howard Emerson

Hi Kevin,
I've always set my bases in Structolite, and it does not take a long time to do.

The ones I've done for myself in the past were dry fitted with shims until dead-nuts level in both directions. The Structolite was poured and the base squished down to the shims. A few well placed screws holding the tile flange steady and you walk away and work on something else.

If it takes more than an hour, turn off your cell phone:-)

I'm steadily leaning towards doing it all myself, and the base would be the last thing I'd do after setting the shower controls, etc, and moving the sink drain/supplies.

I'm still waiting to hear the second estimate.

Thanks for all the suggestions in any case!

Regards,
Howard

hot_rod

the number to get comfortable with

is the labor hour rate. Sounds like you could pinpoint the hours needed to do the job, keep in mind travel costs, with 4 bucks a gallon diesel around here....

It's very easy to get material costs these days.

That leaves the material mark up and or labor hour rate. What do you feel is a fair hourly labor rate for a trained, competent, licensed plumber?

No need to answer really, just trying to find the part where the number looks big to you.

hr

Rich Kontny_3

Howard

You obviously feel you can do this yourself and have every right to do it if is done to code and inspected. I am sure your dentist,doctor etc have rates that far exceed the bidders rate,

Many take for granted the schooling licensing and experience it takes to become a master plumber.I would venture to guess that you do not play on a cheap guitar yet you want a professional to come into your house at below averge costs.

I have worked for quite a few people with just enough plumbing knowledge to be dangerous. Are you going to pull a permit or will scrutiny by a neutral third party cause additional reluctance???

Steve Eayrs_2

bid doesn't sound out of line.

Besides things others have already mentioned, I noticed you mentioned nothing about vents. Woud venture to guess codes where ever you are require venting of all fixtures and that usually means each fixture has its own vent, which are then tied together and ran thru the roof. Is your existing plumbing vented? Maybe, but if doen per code it most likely needs some changes.
Also what you requested is at least one return trip, if not two. It costs me X amount of dollars just to send an equiped van, w/ a two man crew out the door, add travel time, insurance, workers comp, seminars and educational costs, lisc fees, continued education for the privledges to keep the lisc..

IF you think this could all be donne in 3-4 hours, than you are not doing it right. Include travel time, and another trip, with....more travel time, then maybe a return trip for some little thing you forgot when you got the fixtures. Maybe a 4" oc sink, with a 8" oc faucet, which that high paid help in the depot mistakenly supplied you?


Bottom line..... Not sure what others make, but after office help, books, phonne answerinng, me bidding jobs as fast as I can, I usually end up make 5% of the gross. Which equates to not much on your job. What would you be willing to do for $100?

Its not what it costs, but what you get to keep.

My experience is the GC usually makes more on me than I do, and then turns around and complains about what the plumber charges.


FIgure out what the a tile layer mades per sq.ft., then see how many he can lay in a hour. Just one example, but if looked at as an hourly rate, it would make the average plumber look cheap.


How about a good sheet rocker/taper, doing it by the sheet? Ever keep track of the amount time it take verses the total payed to him? My experience is a lot more than the normal plumber makes, and with a lot less overhead or training.


Fact is the average mechanical contractor gets to charge for a lot less of the hours he works in a day than someone pounding nails, where you can usually work in the same location for a few weeks inn a row. Who really is making more per hour??


OK enuf rambling, but I'm sick of hearing about high plumber costs after all these years. Also just paid my taxes just like you.


Steve

Howard Emerson

Good morning all,
The existing plumbing is all done to code, ie: everything is vented properly, and none of that would change.

None of what I've requested would require a return trip.

The supplies that go in the vanity and toilet would simply be installed with threaded nipples, capped, and then I'd shut the water come finish-work time, put on the supply stops and do what I said in my original post: I set the toilet, the sink, and the shower head, hand held, etc.

They're moving a sink drain and supply 12" where it is easily done, and capped.

They're installing a shower body (with built in diverter), installing an outlet for the hand-held hose and another for the shower head. All locations will be marked side to side, height and depth.

The shower base can be set after the shower body, et al, is done, so the structolite sets, and after they're done with the toilet/sink supply wall, they go in the basement and do the drain for the shower from below.

The Westbrass drain (most of which gets installed prior to setting the base)seals itself with the turning of a screw driver from above (a thing of beauty actually, basically a very large compression fitting).

I understand about the rising costs, and I don't begrudge anyone making a living and a profit.

However there's a difference between a fair price and shooting from the hip, and then offering to do it for less when the customer is taken aback by the price..........See if the customer is hard up or bluffing.

By the way: I spoke with my neighbor who had these people in his house recently: The toilet leaked into their kitchen below and ruined the ceiling, but they said the flange wasn't set tight to the floor to begin with (rough in was done by someone else)......but they set the toilet knowing it was not firmly set, and they won't reimburse.

What's that all about?

Thanks again for responses.

Regards,
Howard

Unknown

The biggest soldering secret...

Is to heat the work and let the WORK melt the solder not the flame. Heat it, touch your solder, if the solder doesn't melt on contact with the work take it back out and heat the work a little more. "Dabbing" it in and out till it does melt just like someone else said here. Soon as it melts and fills the joint, you take your heat and solder away.

Howard Emerson

That's good advice and well taken! That's what I remember watching my plumbers do now that you've mentioned it. It just draws itself into the joint.

Aside from the inside/outside wire brush that I got (1/2" & 3/4"), it seems that Grits cloth is an absolute must besides, yes?

Thanks!

HE

Steve Eayrs_2

Howard

Can't vouch for the company your talking about, and possibly its a little over priced. At the same time I think your short on the time this would take. Was also under the impression you wanted them to install stops and trimout to a certain point, and then you would finish installing the fixtures, and maybe a second trip is not required.

As far as what your neighbor experienced. If the existing plumbing, they did not work on, was not exposed enough to see any potential problems, I may find myself siding with the plumber. BUT if they didn't bother sticking around long enough to test things, thann they made a mistake. We all make mistakes, and occasionally have to return at our cost and make things right. WHICH is again more overhead, and has to be figured into the cost of doinng bussiness if your going to survive in the long run.

Hope you end up finding a good honest plumber who renews your faith in this trade..

What kind of music do you play? Your favorite guitar? I play too and love my Taylor 714C. Play weekly in front of a friendly bunch at church, where they participate. I'm not as comfortable in front of a crowd performing.

Steve

Unknown

I just use sandcloth.

I never got on the brush bandwagon.

Practice a few times before you try it for real.

Howard Emerson

Hey Steve,
You've got mail.........

It's important for me to state, clearly, that my faith needs no renewal in the plumbing trade in general.

In fact, in my hanging out on this, and other boiler forum boards, has proven to me that I should expect the best from most licensed plumbers, and the gentleman who installed our EK-1 in Sept.2006, Rob O'Brien, is a prime example of 'fair and exceedingly above board', this board notwithstanding:-)

............and by the way I'm very familiar with Mr.Murphy, and I pay my dues fully knowing that he could not care less: He'll rear his ugly head just as I start thinking 'Ah.....this is going really well........'

HE

Rich L.

Brush and abrasive mesh cloth

When learning to solder many years ago I'll never forget the journeyman teaching me saying "kid, It's not the solder in the joint that keeps it from leaking, It's the solder on the floor". He was a believer in applying the solder until you had a few drips running out.

Then besides the wire brush and abrasive mesh cloth to clean the joints, the other "essential" for me is a pair of the yellow cotton "chore gloves". First off they keep my fingers from getting burned and secondly after I finish a joint, I give it a quick wipe with my gloved finger to get rid of any runs to produce a very nice looking finished product.

For the record it amazes me how so many people will go car or truck shopping and have to have the vehicle setup just how they want, costs a little more, thats ok because thats what they want. Then it comes time for a home repair or boiler replacement and they want five bids and go with the lowest, with little or no regard to quality and reputation. These people would never walk onto the car lot and ask to see the absolute cheapest model, don't care what it is, just show me the cheapest and I'll take it. No disrespect intended Howard and not accusing you of doing this. Heck I did it myself years back when I needed a roof replaced, and found out the hard way the cheapest guy really wasn't in the long run. I don't do that anymore.

If the plumbers are too expensive and you can do it yourself, go for it. Something to keep in mind though, if you find out you are in over your head part way into the project you may find it more expensive to have someone come in and change what you've already done or finish what you've started. There may also be more reluctance on the part of a plumber to do that.

I really do wish you good luck on this which ever way you go.

Best regards, Rich L.

Unknown

What a great thread,

is it OK if I open a Dr`s clinic?, I have many friends who wouldn`t sue me because I`m a nice guy!

Dave

Dan C._4

I don't think he is charging enough.

But I also would not allow the customer to do any of the work. I would have to do all of the work or none of it and it is also not allowed in the state I work in. So I would have to come back for the finish, go get the permit, go meet the inspector for a rough inspection, go meet the inspector on the final inspection, guarantee all of the material that I supplied, etc. If you think the price is too high don't use him. There are plenty of guys out there with less overhead, no insurance and work out of a station wagon.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jdb

I agree, what a great thread.

And just wanted to add that the garage charged almost $900.00 to change out a flex plate in my daughter's car. Said it was an 8-hour job. So that's about $100/hr. I'm sure their actual rate that they quote is less.

Just thought it might help to put a comparable example out there. Not exactly apples-to-apples, but it is real world.