steam to water

DanHolohan

make certain that the radiators have push nipples across the both the top and the bottom. Then you'll have to get the E.D.R. rating of each radiator in squared feet. For hot water, each square foot will put out 150 Btuh.

There are other issues and you can find tech article about those in the Hot Tech Topics section of the site. Use the search engine when you get there.

Bart_7

Steam to hot water

Have a Church that wants to convert there steam system to hot water. The radiators are semi recessed and part of the design. How do I determine if they are sized to provide enough heat from hot water instead of steam. The client says it does warm the space now.
Thank you your input

Steamhead (in transit)

I wouldn't convert it

you'd be increasing the system's operating pressure over ten times, which will do a great job of finding weak points in the piping and radiators and leaking all over the place. I've seen buildings that have suffered severe water damage from these ill-advised conversions. One in particular was a beautiful old church where the system leaked all over the sanctuary, it looked like the Devil had gotten into the church and..... well, you get the idea.

My company does not recommend or perform this type of conversion, and will not work on a system someone else has converted. We don't need the liability.

Why do they want to convert it? Did someone tell them they'll save a lot of fuel? Do they have parts of the building that get too hot or stay too cold? Whatever the problems, it is much more cost-effective to fix them than to risk an iffy conversion. Steam heating is surprisingly efficient and effective when it's running properly.

As far as I know, there has never been a scientific apples-to-apples study of the relative efficiencies of transporting BTUs by steam as opposed to hot-water. There are some used-car-salesman types who tout some incredible numbers, but in every case I've seen they're comparing a steam system on the verge of total failure with a brand-new hot-water system. This is not a valid comparison, and never will be.

Tell us more about what's going on at this church.....

"Steamhead"

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ttekushan_3

Hi Frank (steamhead)

I've finally had a chance to glance at a couple of gas bills from a church with a complex of buildings, only one of which is steam heated. All others are late 50's era baseboard and convector hot water heat.

If you recall, I encountered a steam system that was mishandled by "non-steam" technicians. The building in question encompasses the original church (later converted to offices, library, school rooms, etc.) the original school, cafeteria and kitchen. Not a small place. There's no night setback (just pneumatic thermostats everywhere) and the mean temperature throughout is 70 degrees.

Rooftop unit a/c and heating units have been shunned in favor of restoring the steam heating in about 3000 square feet of the building, bringing it back up to all steam heat! The boiler is a 30 year old flexi-tube steamer by Bryan Boilers. I did nothing unfamiliar to us steam guys out there. A few traps, some pneumatic rehab, a leak or two, actually extremely minimal work to the system, but the boiler needed quite a few new tubes, a LOT of cleaning, burner service, etc. etc. Boy, that boiler was really ailing! It was almost a question of replacing it. But with the service work, the analyzer tells me its working to "as new" spec and has been for two seasons now since the service work.

The newer church is MUCH taller, but considerably less square footage (with a mean temp at the floor of 65 degrees). Cast iron hot water boiler, outdoor reset control. Icemelt, which I admit can be an energy hog but still...

This winter, the fuel consumption of the steam heated building has dropped to HALF of what it was in years past based on average outdoor temperature. I'll do degree day calculations if they OK the release all past gas bills.

And here's the kicker: the Steam building now consumes only 1/3 as much natural gas as the hot water heated main church.

Definitely a stunning success. Of course, they want to know what to do about that church fuel consumption. I'll think of something for the HW system, but for now I'm basking in the warmth of the efficient STEAM HEAT!

Warm regards (pun intended),
Terry

ttekushan_3

Didn't mean to leave you out, Dan!. Here's a photo.

Here's a photo of the property courtesy google maps.

The I-beam shaped building to the south is the steam heated building.

The newer church is the building north of that. I think the small rectory is part of the church's fuel consumption (lower right). Church and rectory are hot water heated. The roof line of the newer church is not quite 2x that of the older (I beam) building.

Did I mention that the building that dominates the bottom 2/3 of the photo is the STEAM heated building that uses 1/3 the fuel of the hot water heated building to the north (and rectory, SE part of photo)?

Hmmm. Yes I'm sure I did. Kind of hard to let that neat little fact get by!

The "Vapor State" rules!

-Terry

Edit-- Actually, an additional point: Steamhead said in an above post that

"in every case I've seen they're comparing a steam system on the verge of total failure with a brand-new hot-water system. This is not a valid comparison, and never will be."

This was one such system. As a matter of fact, it had finally failed a day or two before I got the phone call. I arrived to find pumps running continuously, feed water running continuously, water leaking down the side of the boiler, and a pneumatic t-stat air compressor running nearly continuously (actually shut down by a frustrated janitor). There are still radiant electric heaters and wall furnaces all over the building that had been added as the steam system lost it capabilities. Radiators were disconnected and capped out of a desire to force what was left of the steam flow to whatever was still connected. They only got desperate when it stopped altogether, yet the problems were accumulating over a period of 20 years! Truth be told, they had a regular technician on hand that had them snowed on his abilities and had convinced everyone that nothing could be done about it. This tech had everyone intimidated so that no outside firm could be called in. By the time he left the parish the problems were bad enough that none of the heating firms called in would touch the steam system. Except me, of course ;-)

My contribution is a non-controlled study that clearly shows something close enough to 50% fuel use reduction that it should draw some attention. The cost of my services had a ONE MONTH PAYBACK PERIOD (assuming jan or feb fuel usage). And that with reconnecting all the radiators. Even a total trap replacement and full retubing of the boiler (the boiler has oh, 160 tube or so in it) would have paid back in one season. Try THAT with a conversion.

Steamhead (in transit)

Another great \"save\"

Terry, I sure hope you're coming to Wetstock- there will be some people there who would want to shake your hand.

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