Anyone have any dirt on Triangle Tube's Prestige heat exchanger?

mintplumber1958063

Yeah, the Gionnoni boilers are junk. Just want to see what others think about the triangle heat exchanger v.s. the viessmann design. Just came back from Viessmann Germany and found out everything they know. Type Giononni into Google to check out where munchkin, knight, teledyne, baxi, etc. buy there exchangers from.

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mintplumber1958063

Modcon heat exchangers. Who is best?

Anyone have any dirt on Triangle Tube's stainless heat exchanger? 3 designs i know of in s.s. 1. Viessmann 2. Giononni(munchkin,knight among others) 3. Triangle Tube

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Derheatmeister

what do you mean by dirt? do you mean Problems or dirty exchanger? If you are talking about who has the best exchanger..I had very good results with the Viessmanns and with the TT prestige as well...

As for the Umpa lumpa Munchie(Which i do not install!)I just serviced one a Couple weeks ago, although the combustion was on and the systems Combustion air was fine and it was on Nat gas. the exchanger was clogged up...
Not sure about the gap on the exchanger!

I was also disappointed to see that this boiler was controlled by setpoint only! One would think that a 50 year old technology could have been integrated 5 years ago!!

mintplumber1958063

Spelling correction Giannoni



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hot_rod

Is that a Viessmann quote

" the Giannoni boilers are junk" or your opinion from first hand experience?

www.giannoni.fr/products.php

hr

mintplumber1958063

I know hr i sound like a stroke but rememmber i just came back 3 weeks ago. Their literiture on condensing tech is astounding. The whole thing on their radial hx and their definitive .08 mm gap throughout the winding vs Giannoni's mechanical crushed tube wound up with headers, only condensing on the back half etc. Ive put in about a dozen vitodens 100 and i pleaded my case that it needs a measilly out door reset built in to the no. american president of viessmann. But this is the best design I think but deff. please tell me your opinion. And yes I have seen a couple o ring header failures and blown up fans on Munchkins. I also have a Munchkin in my house and Gararge. J

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hot_rod

Were

the blown up fans and o-ring headers produced by Giannoni? It seem most of the problems have to do with fans, modules, gas valves, everything added at assembly BUT not the actual HX.

No question Viessmann builds real nice stuff, but not everyone see the value in the extra price. It also seems like they don't really want to adapt to the US market completely, as you mentioned with the 100.

And really now the Vitoden 200 can't display temperature in F after all these years The Germans make speedometers that read in mph for the US market.

Will you be replacing the boilers in your own place with Vitodens 100 or 200's?

hr

Supply House Rick

Yes, No Dirt

I sold at least 50 Prestige Boilers and they did not have one single problem that wasn't installer error. Their stainless self cleaning heat-exchanger is world class. Also, you don't have to use a special antifreeze that the cast aluminum manufacturer require.

You shouldn't hear one negative thing about the Triangle Tube Prestige and it's priced very reasonable compared to similar boilers.. I spoke recently with an installer who went back a year later to check on it and it was spotless...

Rick

Ron Gillen

Fahrenheit Display

Do they supply different boilers to the "States"? In Canada the Vitodens 200 displays both. Coding default OD6:000 for Celsius and OD6:001 for Fahrenheit. I wish you could have both at once. We relate best to Celsius for outdoor temps and Fahrenheit for system temps.

tim smith

As stated in another post

We just went back on one we installed 3 yrs ago, little build up in tubes and upper tube sheet on gas side but not like we see w/ munchy after a year. Not one breakdown in 3 yrs of installing Prestige, had one DOA fan on a boiler but other than that, wow. Tim

Kal Row

i second that - hr

i have installed lots of Lochinvar knight's with those and no problems so far - and i haven’t cleaned one yet,

i have used the triangle tube's Prestige and it's ok too, but i dont like the controls on it - Lochinvar "smart system" make it worth the extra money, cause Lochinvar gives you an external “system” sensor so that it can measure/adjust the system loop’s temperature if you are injecting into it via close-T's which you should be – with the prestige, I had set the boiler temp with an estimate for the secondary temp – don’t like that at all – and the owner did not want to pay for a tekmar – it works, but is far from optimum –

by the way Giannoni make different grades of them, the ones in the Lochinvar knight is a better grade with better heat transfer then the one in the NTI – the vie$$mann is also a Giannoni design but it is privately made and is a better grade still, with a squared off tubes in a really tight coil that gives the best transfer if you got the $$

I do use triangle tube's indirect water heaters a lot – the tank in tank design has a lot of surface area, and Weill McLain sells them as the “plus” with a lifetime warranty,
and with enough gpm, you can put every btu output from your boiler into it, to get "forever hot water" like a rinnai – and the insulation is so good that very little heat is lost to the air and is a way more reliable system, if you are doing DMHW recirculation, The only caveat is that the inner tank has to be pressurized first or the outer tank will crush it

Derheatmeister

ON all of my Vitoden i can change from C to F ..

hot_rod

Odd

I had the factory tech support on the line, gave him the model number, went through the whole list of code options, and he told me it couldn't be changed. Maybe I had an old import model?

It also arrived with a defective mother board and wouldn't fire from day one.

I will say it is a smooth running, well built machine. The inverter box seems to be another Euro hold over.. it can't be built to 120V 60 cycle spec? A bit of cash in the white powder coated transformer box.

hr

hot_rod

I agree the Prestige

control is not as user friendly as all the other brands. Not very many installer friendly features either. Much less of a control that the Knight has. I believe it is the only brand to use that Honeywell control?

hr

Kal Row

acctually...

the WM Ultra use the same control and perhaps the new slant-fin ones also
actually all the boilers in tekmar’s http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/sb/sb032v7.pdf
service bulletin that use an “AM4” as the 0-10v oem adapter use the Honeywell control, you can buy a really cheap am4 equivalent from hbx controls

Honeywell has a new control out now - that Laars is using in their new mod-con that also happens to have a Giannoni,
and the new honeywell will be a lot more like Lochinvar’s from BAS 0-10v input to cascading boiler sets and multiple temps - they are looking to build a "knight" killer -
their Giannoni has the back built in a way that the exhaust exits the top, and Laars built the cabinet a little wider than Lochinvar so that all the pipes go straight up, no side or back space needed - but of course the boiler will have a bigger footprint for the same btu,
it’s not rocket science

not to be outdone, lochinvar, is also looking into overhead pipe config on their XL line of knights - and the knight wall mount at up to 210kbtu is simply perfect, – I am on their case to do a 210 “combi” as there is more than enough room inside wb210’s cabinet for a dhw-HX, flow-sw, 3-way valve, and pump – a lot more room than there is in the baxi-lunar/laars-mascot and those even have a conformal expansion tank built in

UniR_3

Not the only one...

Triangle-tube (ACV) is definitely not the only one using the MCBA boiler control. As mentioned it is used in the Ultra (although from what I've heard will not be in the Ultra 3). It is also used on Burnham/Crown's modcon, along with several ECM models like the 95M-200. Cleaver-Brooks uses it for the Clearfire modulating boiler.

The controller can also control a separate low temp circuit and even provides it with a separate low temp ODR curve, but this functionality doesn't seem to ever even make it across the Atlantic. In Europe, it is used by many boiler manufacturers such as Beretta, Ideal, Lamborghini, Remeha...

Ross_7

Had to inspect my TT, not by choice

A few Sundays ago, I was downstairs, and I noticed my TT Prestige, was running , then dropped out & did it again, with no error code. So, I took off the front cover to see what was going on, and I noticed the ground wire attached to the igniter was black & charred. So, I figured,"No wonder, bad ground" So, I shut the power off, removed the top cover, to unscrew the wire, the screw snapped off in the burner cover. I moved the wire to the other holding screw for the igniter, and got it going for the weekend. I had another one sent to me (under warranty), figuring that I could just drill out & re-tap the broken screw. No room to do that, because of the angle to get at the igniter & the fan & gas valve were in the way. NOTE: When removing the burner top, be VERY careful of the burner insulation, it's just resting on the top ridge of the burner compartment. Mine fell & broke into 4 pieces. It might have been damaged from the get-go. Managed to un-thread both screws ( the other head broke also while trying to remove it) out the other side of the burner lid, without having to re-tap & re-thread the holes. My guess overall is that when it was assembled at the plant, the impact drive put the igniter screws in too tight. Or maybe heat from the burner? Not sure. If TT made 10,000 boilers that ran without a skip, I would get the one "Monday" or "Friday" boiler, that would have that kind of S**T luck. My burner area did have black build up on the sides of the burner compartment. Yes, I set it up with my Bacharach Combustion Analyzer. Just my input. Have a good day!
Ross

Boilerpro_5

I was already through the training for that.....

the extra curve is already available on the Tube.

Boilerpro

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Tom Hopkins

Viessmann trip

No HR i'll leave those munchkins in until they start giving me probs. Speaking of that when it was colder out on ignition i had a loud resonation like a moan for about 1-2 sec. some worse than others. I did a the first comb. test on it in 3 years and it was right on with the CO2 a CH high at 9.86% on low fire. I played w/ it a little, same thing. HTP said to fatten it up so i did a little w/out raising the CO too much. But still doing it. Went away now that its warmer out. A preheated inlet such as coax type pipe would be better. More neat viessmann stuff i learned in abit....

Tom Hopkins

Viessmann trip

No HR i'll leave those munchkins in until they start giving me probs. Speaking of that when it was colder out on ignition i had a loud resonation like a moan for about 1-2 sec. some worse than others. I did a the first comb. test on it in 3 years and it was right on with the CO2 a CH high at 9.86% on low fire. I played w/ it a little, same thing. HTP said to fatten it up so i did a little w/out raising the CO too much. But still doing it. Went away now that its warmer out. A preheated inlet such as coax type pipe would be better. More neat viessmann stuff i learned in abit....

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Kal Row

is there a way to hook up a system sensor?

Bob Forand

Sounds like

Sounds just like a Viessmann statement to me. Viessmann Vitodens are an incredible boiler, without doubt. BUT,there are a select few customers of mine, that can afford that boiler. I have had no issues selling the Giannoni type boilers. I dont ever sell them as a 50 year old boiler either. They are not junk as you put it. A properly piped, and properly controlled boiler will give customers the same comfort as the Viessmann. And I would love to hear your argument that the Viessmann technology is so much better that it will ever really pay for itself over the Giannoni type of boiler, that is properly piped and controlled. It is just physics you know!
I am not trying to start an argument with anyone, but just voicing my opinion as you have yours.

Derheatmeister

Bob ,That is OK

Viessmann = Mercedes

Munchie = Yugo

They Both give you Heat/Transportation.

Not everybody Drives a Mercedes! Or can Afford it.

I Do not like to get on my knees anymore to Troubleshot a boiler! BTW the statement of the 50 year old Boiler:OUTDOOR reset was around maybe even longer than that!

Why the setpoint only with the early version Munchies?? Even the tech support from Heattransfer agrees with me about this!!

Had any Condensate Rubber drains on the Bottom of this "boiler" Deteriorate yet?

Oh that is a fun one, Must remove the "boiler" from it PLASTIC jacket, which never even closed .

But they added two more Hasps to fix that!

Like I said before : I am not sure about that exchanger!
I had one that was setup correctly ,and it was Clogged up! CLR in the Bathtub did the job,it is running fine now!

I do not see as many problems with the Viessmanns!

Bob Forand

My point

My point is that there are many homeowners lurking here, that are being told that the boiler they are being quoted, or have just had installed is junk. Be it whatever boiler is using that hx. I will agree that yes, they need to be cleaned, yes they need to be set up properly, yes there have been issues, BUT they are not junk by any means. I have never installed a Munchkin so I can't answer your question about the set point, or the condensate line. I have installed many Baxi's and I don't have to get on my knees for that boiler either. I also agree that the Viessmann Vitodens 200 is a mercedes, But I look at the Giannoni HX type boilers as the Ford's, Dodge's or the Chevy's of the world. Just the hard working machines that get the majority of people from point A to B.

My statement about Viessmann, is because they have that attitude, and they do their best to impress that on every tech that goes to their training classes. I understand why they do that and don't really disagree. THEY just don't understand that this is not Germany. We can't all afford their technology.

klaus

Viessman or Knight/Lochnivar Condensing Boiler?

I'm in the process of getting quotes to replace my current steam that was converted from hot water 20 years ago due to a system freeze, now back to hot water heating with an indirect hot water tank. Moving forward, we will be using Apex piping vs. cooper due to cost and the flexibility to move through walls and tighten up close to the basement ceiling.

The local Viessman heating guy is difficult and arrogant to work with. We found another heating company we like to work with but they primarily use the Knight/Lochnivar systems. They can get a Viessman and have been certified to install but do not work with the product often. Aside from the Viessman looking great and using the best in materials, are there any other differences as to why I should spend the extra $$ for a Viessman vs a Knight? Will I save more money in fuel, less service calls, better comfort? Struggling with this one. I can afford to get the Viessman but if Knight is as good as I hear it is, why should I justify the additional expense? Help!

Tim Weaver

Looking for service on my furnace

I have a Vie ss Mann cast iron gas fire boiler or furnace,it was put in a new home to heat the house and hot water.It is a 1995 Model # ATOLA EC, ACD 115, serial # 115-951874.I need to know who to call that know how to work on these in the Florence ,Oregon 97439 area. It is going through gas like crazy and is a 2nd home with nothing is one and the gas company says there are no leaks. I have never had it serviced or know that it needed it.Thanks,

Joe Fay
joefay@nwicars.com

Brstr

Service

Try Commercial Air Inc. out of Eugene 541-464-4821.

Bob_113

Munchie is a Yugo?

Der Elitist.

You are one of the Viessmann elitist and attitudes like that are the reason they can barely sell a boiler in today's market. Ask your supplier how many they really sell, very few. maybe 75 to one of their regular everyday line. These attitudes are a joke and you wonder why when the recall occurred the entire community came down hard and with much laughter. I guarantee there are more munchkins working in the USA than the Viessmann. Stop being a jerk and I'll stop laughing!

Paul Pollets

EC Boiler

The EC boiler was developed for the N. American market only, and was not available with integral outdoor reset control package. The boiler works best when attached to a med. or high temp load, and with outdoor reset. We used to add the Trimatic control to the EC, but stopped doing it when the Vitotec line was introduced. There are conversion boxes for the Vitotronic 200 control, if the installer had the control background.

Since your water tank is attached, Check if the DHWT aquastat requires the boiler to stay at 170, rather than on "priority" status. Put a Tekmar control in that will do both the boiler circuit and the setpoint control for DHWT.

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scott markle_2

HR, the vito 200 can most defiantly display temperature in Fahrenheit. It's just a mater of setting a parameter in the installer set-up.

Scott

Biggest problem with the vito 100 is natural gas only.

Unknown

we have a ton of munchkin-powered systems out there.

Velcro is an integral part of the boiler design.

That's Yugo.

Yugo, by the way, was a very servicable car and I'm sure there were a heck of a lot more Yugos than mercedes sold.

That does not mean that Yugos are better than mercedes. It does mean that they were better than another option, walking, for a lot of people who couldn't afford a mercedes.

klaus

The true comparison should be...

Not - would you prefer a Benz over a Hyundai, as if somehow a car has anything to do with a heating system - but rather...

Does the comfort derived from the Viessmann have any superiority to comfort derived from the Hyundai?

The car to boiler analysis is useful only to those who have an agenda. That agenda is not to inform, but to obfuscate the fact that the a boiler is a boiler.

Not a car.

Our notion of what we see in the basement is irrelevant to the comfort the occupants.

Our preoccupation with basements is just that, a preoccupation.

Most customers simply desire comfort. It is purely an act of selling, that convinces them to buy an overpriced boiler. They will experience identical comfort for far less money - if they buy the "Hyundai."

The only real difference will be the "jingle" in the contractor's pocket.

Therein, lies the truth.

Unknown

ever work on a glowcore?

a boiler is a boiler?

I just had one die after ten years. no leaks in the system. a big name boiler, I might add, on a standard 3 zone baseboard system.

a boiler is a boiler?

Operating costs, efficiency, comfort, noise, reliability, emissions, these are same for every unit on the market today?

I do not think viessmann is the best at everything, but simply pretending that all boilers are equal is simply an oversimplification. You can argue about whether the improvements are WORTH what is being charged, but you cannot say that all boilers are equal.

At least, not with any integrity. Of course, integrity has been lacking amongst many of trolls on the board lately.

ME_20

Don't you think for a moment

that the North American boiler manufacturers would LOVE to reap the profits that Viessmann does. They (V) do it because they can. North American boiler manufacturers are so busy trying to be "competetive" against each other that they end up making pennies on the dollar, just in the sake of getting a sale over their competitor.

"sales" are a major part of ANY job, regardless of what you are peddeling. If you can't sell youself or your company or their products, you will not be in business long... Viessmann people have to work even harder than the competition, but they do have a superior product to sell, and when properly presented, the consumer can SEE and FEEL the difference.

And by the way, Der Heatmesiter is not an "eletist". He knows what is good and he does what's right, and he has no problem selling Viessmann boilers, or any other boiler for that matter.

ME

Clark

Yes I have worked on a GlowCore

Just last month!

The point is; design and installation is more important than the boiler. I have been to many factory schools (even hosted a few) and you can readily pick out the smart guys (usually taking notes).

I have put in Munchkins for people on a budget and Viessmanns for people with money. I let the people decide what's best for them after I have done a preliminary design based on a heat load analysis. Heck, I even give them a dumb cast iron model if they insist! (But I'll deny it if pressed.)

I encourage my customers to choose the contractor first, ask him if he provides a heat load and try to keep an open mind even if the contractor is a hardheaded German (hard to avoid in this trade) hah!

Keep in mind fellas; we are fighting over 2% of the market while the tin knockers are fat and happy with the rest.

Wayne_27

triangle tube prestige 250

installed 1 yr a go just started to have problems with over firing to the point the exchanger top plate have blown the studs lose and started to send mixed error messages to the honeywell controller. still under warranty by days. i will keep you posted as to how triangle tube is about standing by their product warranty.

pings

Unknown

pings

WOW that`s different!
TT is a good outfit, can`t see you having any probs with them.
Are you sure your gas suppliers reg is OK?
May not be TTs problem after-all.

Dave

Steve Ebels_3

C to F conversion

Is just a coding change.