Steam experts - Critique near boiler piping please

Mad Dog_2

Megsteam would be an excellent choice. In any case, that older boiler is ready..........The telltale signs are there as Johnny NY noted., Mad Dog

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Steve Garson_2

Attached are photos of the Smith Model 19 Series 6 that I am newly responsible for managing. I suspect the near boiler piping is all wrong, but the heat works fine. If that is the case, are there any efficiency reasons to correct the piping with a drop header? Are the Victaulic pipe joints a disaster waiting to happen?

The boiler is oversized by two sections due to elimination of radiators in rooms that now have air handlers. The burner is fired correctly for the load. Would it make sense to remove the two sections to bring the boiler to the correct size for the load?

I report to a board of directors, so my recommendations need to make financial sense. Some people want to rip out the system and install hot air and air conditioning. I suspect that it makes more financial sense to correct what we have. (note: the scorching on the boiler skin has been resolved)

Steve

JohnNY

Keep this boiler?

You're working with nothing good there, Steve.

The piping arrangement is wrong, the Victaulic has probably already failed and should never have been used, the boiler is too old to be useful and looks like it was recently the source of a dangerous condition....



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Steve Garson_2

The dangerous condition was from the oil company clean out. The gasket material was worn and they didn't notice until we called them back.

The water is crystal clea like tap water, which leads me to believe that the boiler has a good life ahead of it, don't you think?

dbengineering1995899

?

The boiler is so compromised by improper piping (the take-offs are on the WRONG side of the riser array!) the inherent danger of the Vic fittings are serious code violations, the inherent inefficiency of the boiler design (not to mention age) so poor, that fuel costs would be reduced by at least one third - simply by replacement!

Fixing or correcting anything there would be akin to what Ken Secor used to call, "Putting fertilizer on a weed."

Matt_67

Scrap the dam thing as soon as possible. You will be much more energy efficient with a gas fired hot air system plus gainning the comfort of air conditioning.

Mad Dog_2

Time for the ...........................................

Junk yard. Sorry. Mad Dog

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Steve Garson_2

Mad dog -

You're a fan of steam, if I recall. What would you replace this with? Another steamer, or start from scratch and go with air? 2 Megasteams? A single boiler?

Steve

nicholas bonham-carter

boiler problem

what about replacing all the sections with new plus new piping and a hi-lo burner setup controled by 2 vaporstats?
probably less expensive than a couple of new boilers and room for more capacity down the road?--nbc

Brad White_185

Mad Dog is a fan of steam?

A fan?

Mad Dog is to steam what Chuck Norris is to kicking butt.

JohnNY

Dog vs. Norris. No contest.

Mad Dog is to steam what Mad Dog is to kicking butt.

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gerry gill

oh boy!!

sometimes its best to replace..

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Steve Garson_2

I haven't been focused on this site for a couple years, since Mad Dog and Steamhead held my hand in learning the tricks of the trade to get my home steamer installed by Ed Wallace.

Mad Dog_2

Awwwww Shucks...I am truly flattered boys..........

That means A WHOLE lot coming from you boys. Next round is one me when we meet again. Mad Dog

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Steve Garson_2

Thanks. My total load is 823 square feet and 1100 square feet if you use a 1.33 pickup factor.

The biggest Megasteam is rated at around 612 square feet of steam. My understanding is that with a two boiler configuration, one boiler should be 66% of the load and the other 34% of the load. That makes the Megasteam a bit small for the primary boiler...or does it?

Suggestions?

Steamhead (in transit)

Use

a MegaSteam 288 as the smaller boiler, and a MegaSteam 629 as the larger. You don't need to add a pickup factor to your EDR, it's already figured into the boilers' ratings.

Control the 288 with a Vaporstat, mounted on the main steam header that the boilers feed into, so it shuts down when the system pressure reaches 3 ounces or so.

You may have to slightly down-fire the 629 if it continues to build pressure and short-cycle after the 288 has shut down. The 629 should be fired at a rate that will keep the system full of steam but not build pressure when all the radiation is turned on.

And don't even think about putting in scorched-air. That would be insane. If you really think you need A/C, a mini-split or mini-duct A/C-only system is the way to go.

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Steve Garson_2

Thanks Steamhead! We all appreciate your help on this site.

Steve

nicholas bonham-carter

board of directors

your financial masters may find it easier to swallow the lower cost of installing new sections and piping and a modulating burner on the existing boiler than 2 new boilers [or even 1]
nbc

Keith_8

financial decision

Steve,
I am making an assumption but after looking at those pictures something tells me the boiler is loaded with soot. You have high stack temperatures, low efficiency and a burner that never shuts off.

That being said,
It is time to replace the boiler no doubt about it. Bring a contractor in who understands multiple steam boiler replacements. There are a couple of considerations that need attention. One of them being cyling or rotating between the 2 boilers as Steamhead mentioned. Another being F&T traps installed just above the normal water line to prevent flooding. With the multiple boilers you will want to use a small boiler feed tank for condensate collection and distribution.

My guess is that you will have a tough time convincing the board that a boiler replacement is warrented based upon the condition of the boiler, after all it is keeping the building warm, not to efficient but warm none the less.

Fuel savings would be my focus and a capitol improvement would be secondary. Find a proffesional who can provide a payback analysis. With oil aproaching $4.00 a gallon the Return on Investment should be impressive.

Keith

Steve Garson_2

Keith-

Thanks. To add to the financial benefit - we can convert to gas and then have the option to use a oil burner should the price variance flip-flop again.

Steve

Steamhead (in transit)

Condensate tank

is usually not needed on something this small. See page 67 of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" for an illustration of the right way to pipe several boilers for gravity return.

Steve, if you're planning to switch between oil and gas, remember that Burnham does not (yet?) support gas burners on the MegaSteam. But Smith does, in their 8 series in which the gas variant is the G-8. You'd use the 3 section for the smaller boiler and the 6 section for the larger.

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Steve Garson_2

Well that would save a lot of money if we can avoid the condensate tank, pump and controls.

Do you have any sense of the financial value of using two boilers versus one larger one? Intuitively, it makes sense, but I have to sell the long term return.

dbengineering1995899

I fear

Steamhead's blind faith in the Megasteam product has compromised his ability to discern the proper solution.

The cost of two boilers and all the completely unecessary redundancy will make the final cost of materials and labor - as well as the efficiency of such complexity, obscene.

Many fine steam boilers exist. Find one boiler that fills the bill and pipe it absolutely as written n the instruction manual and you will have a far smaller foot[rint, and enough money left over to buy a cold beer and watch the savings amass. Putting two smaller boilers in this application makes no sense whatsoever.

Keith_8

I disagree

Multiple boilers are done for a variety of reasons. To say this building doesn't warrant 2 smaller boilers verses 1 larger light commercial boiler doesn't take into account fuel consumption, limited redundacy and simplier equipment to maintain.
I would venture to say the cost difference isn't significant between the 2 and the fuel savings will pay for the difference in short order.

Keith

Steamhead (in transit)

Uhhhh, DB

did you even read the part of my post that says "remember that Burnham does not (yet?) support gas burners on the MegaSteam. But Smith does, in their 8 series in which the gas variant is the G-8"?

In that paragraph, I am telling Steve that as much as I like the MegaSteam, it might not be the best choice at this time if he wants to switch between oil and gas. "Blind faith", indeed.....

As to using multiple boilers where lo-hi-lo firing is not available, the savings from this is well documented. Here is one such installation where I saved the link- thanks to Terry Tekushan for sharing it with us:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=304813&_#Message304813

In general, when one of us posts something like this on the Wall, we have the numbers to back it up. To do otherwise would make us look like stereotypical used-car salesmen, which would benefit no one.

Keith, you nailed one important point. We're doing a 2-boiler installation sometime next month and found that the two Smith G-8 boilers needed cost about the same as one Weil-McLain EGH atmospheric in the proper size. The EGH does not have a lo-hi-lo option and is limited to the one fuel. For us, and the customer, it was a no-brainer.



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Bob Bona_4

Frank/Keith

What is your threshold where two boilers start to make sense? I'm thinking 200K and up? Steam or HW should be no difference?

Steamhead (in transit)

Bob, what we're after here

is the ability to switch to a lower firing rate when appropriate. Commercial jobs, as we know, have had this capability for years. But when you get below high-fire rates of 10-11 GPH or so, using burners like the Carlin 701/702CRD, Beckett CF1400 or similar, lo-hi-lo firing simply is not available. So the 2-boiler solution is the way to go for best efficiency.

Also, if using an indirect, you can drive it with just the smaller boiler in the summer. This is more efficient than heating up one big boiler for the indirect.

Several people have stated their belief that when using mod-con hot-water boilers, the "mod" (modulation of firing rate, for those readers who aren't familiar) contributes more to their higher efficiency than the "con" (condensing of flue gases). I haven't seen any hard numbers on this, but since both of these do contribute to higher efficiency why not go for partial modulation (lo-hi-lo) on steam?

"Steamhead"

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