Anyone have experience with the \"Freewatt\" co-gen rez system?

Noel Kelly_3

Thanks Joel. We have upwards of 50 systems installed in the eastern Mass area with several more installed in neighboring states and more going in every week. Timing is everything they say and people are certainly responding to the ever increasing costs of energy.

Dave did an excellent job in recounting Eric's description so there is little for me to add at the moment.

Noel Kelly

Sales and Product Support

Climate Energy

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_11

co-gen for homes

Interesting idea, but not sure how practical it is over the long term.

www.climate-energy.com

joel_28

free watt

yup it's very cool and it's from Mass so like anything else we come up with it's got to be good right?(well ok there was that whole John Kerry thing) I mean we've got Sam adams,Fenway,MIT,Haaaaaavard,The Gahden,the North End,Da Cape,Da Vinyard and Scotty Milne.

Seriously though I've seen it upclose for about two years now and it is a fine product that does everything they claim. Nice and quiet i was afraid it would be loud.

Noel Kelly_3

Hey Dave,

I have been espousing the benefits of freewatt for some time here on The Wall. Let me know what aspect of freewatt it is that leads you to question the long term benefits and I will be happy to elucidate.

You should know me well enough to know that I will not lead you astray...

Noel K.

jp_2

how does it??

handle small loads, frig and such when no one is home? then it has to be capable to houses full load. what is the efficiency at this wide range?

sure I can see it working in winter, don't need much heat from april to october though, thats going to kill efficiency.

I still prefer batteries and solar panels, my panels were producing electricity during snow storms.

not sure I think burning propane all the time is green?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

at first

that was my line of thimking too (as Poo would have said). But, after talking with Eric Guyer, CEO of the company, I have to say I am impressed and quite possibly sold on the idea.

As I understand the operation, it responds to a call for heating and it is the waste-heat scavenged from the generator's exhaust (12,000 BTUs per hour) that is sent to the hi-eff furnace or boiler system. The boiler or furnace is the second-stage heat.

The idea of rez co-gen dates back to the 70's, but according to Guyer, this is the first serious inroad by a major mfgr (Honda) to bring co-gen to life in a way that's reasonable and with an expected long life.

Guyer claims 65,000 units have been sold and placed into service over the past three years in Japan.

To answer the heating-only question, an indirect can evidently be added, which would give us a load for warmer weather. By adding a pre-heat indirect tank, it could work much as does a crock-pot by letting the 12K input slowly and steadily raise thepre-heat tank to the desired temp. Guyer stated the co-gen unit puts out 150F to 180F water, so an indirect is not out of the question and those temps allow for hi-temp hydronic retrofits too(G).

As Guyer pointed out, "you're going to burn the gas anyway and at roughly the same efficiency. The 1.2-kW of electricity generated is the by-product and it's essentially free since you were going to use the fuel in a furnace or boiler anyway."

The 1.2-kW is, according to Guyer, the average daily load per home in the US & that's why they chose that target. If your state allows net metering, you could end up with a net-zero charge or even have the utility owe you money. Because it's grid-connected, smaller loads result in spinning the meter backwards.

Noel - do you have any units installed?

Seems to me that the high cost of fossil fuels is fueling changes that bode well for us all!

joel_28

Installations

Noel can answer this better than I but i know there are several installed all over eastern Mass. I'd have offered up my house as a test site long ago but I don't have gas.

Mitch_6

Went to the web site

could not tell if they sell to independent contractors. Looks like something interesting to install.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

they say the memory is the second thing to go!

Noel,

My memory must be faulty. I'd forgotten you were connected to this company and the previous posts. My apologies extended.

As Eric can tell you from our conversation, I'm interested in pursuing the opportunity to add this to our line of offerings.

jp_2

nice sale pitch, BUT......

first I will agree its better than a standard generator.

but:

where is its place? high priced houses off grid?

as you know dave, you do not size a heat plant for average winter temps, nor can you size a generator for average daily wattage, you need to look at your peak load.

solar panels and collectors can give you 'free' energy, but you are paying for that propane all day long. I do not see its waste heat as free, it came with the propane you bought.

still, what use is that waste heat in the summer months?
you can heat and store water, but so can a roof collector, and that doesn't use propane.

why have an expensive generator if you are connected to the grid? if you want to see the meter spin backwards, use a wind gen or solar panels.

what happens during the day when the wall clock is the only thing running?

I still think batteries can operate more efficiently in a wider ranger of loads, what is the output when the gen is at idle?

nice sales pitch, but the details of operation are fuzzy.

curious minds want to know?

jp_2

cost to spin meter

""" If your state allows net metering, you could end up with a net-zero charge or even have the utility owe you money. Because it's grid-connected, smaller loads result in spinning the meter backwards.""""

you have to look at the cost to you to spin that meter backward? might cost you $1o.00 to back spin and you get $2.00 back from the utility? it costs to be connected to grid also, why pay to be connected, then pay to spin the meter? where is your net gain?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

good points

but, as was pointed out, if I'm going to burn either type gas in the boiler or furnace anyway, why not do so in the generator while recycling its waste-heat?

If you live in one of the 40+ states that have net-metering, you can get credit for any excess - just like a grid-tie solar system. And, it operates exactly as does a grid-tie solar system by shutting off if the grid goes down.

At roughly 8K extra for the added generator portion (beyond the hi-e furnace or boiler if viewed as a stand-alone new install), it's on par with the cost for a 1.2-kW solar grid-tie system.

We're in the PV & thermal solar game too. As a dealer for both types of solar systems, I see this as yet another option for our customers. Just one more option to add to the sales options. PA has a new low-cost 2% fixed loan available for alt energy systems for up to 75% of the total. We're in the process of applying for a grid-tie 6-kW system project we're going to be installing.

Noel Kelly_3

GrandPAH is grayer...

...and we know what that means...

Great to hear that you will be joining the family and I look forward to speaking with you in the future.

Noel

jp_2

mod con waste heat?

do we really consider a modcon to produce useable amounts of waste heat?

I have a problems understanding systems that are grid tied?
1.) a PV system will not work during the night and on power outages(at night)? so you have this big expensive PV system that doesn;t work at night?

2.) 200 watts of panel/battery will do more work than the 1,200watt grid tie, unless you pull power from grid. why spend all the money on a system that produces peak power when everyone is at work/school?

3.)when will the co gen work when its tied to the grid?

4.) as far as I know, michigan does not have net metering. everyone I've talked to that is off the grid isn;t interested in net metering.

again, i can see the uses, it just seems real limited and not that green.

jp_2

well then

"""but, as was pointed out, if I'm going to burn either type gas in the boiler or furnace anyway, why not do so in the generator while recycling its waste-heat?""""

hopefully you have installed a modcon that has no real usable waste heat? the cogen is going to have more losses than a good boiler. whats the true cost of making electricity when connected to the grid?

if you are grid tied, why run the co gen?

PV tied grid systems make no sense to me either. for one, they don;t work at night unless you have batteries. two if no batteries and the power goes off, you only have power during the day? if they were money makers, you'd see more PV systems.

you can store that average daily 1,200Kwh in batteries and get by with half the PV panels.

no net metering in michigan as I know. everyone I have talked to off grid are not interested in net metering. i think a close look at costs will let you see the light. Ok for people who have lots of spare money.

still better than a generator I guess.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

grid tied PV

But, for an office or business, grid tie does make sense. Sun's out when they're at work and sets when work is done. No batts = no eff losses from having a batt system.

Run the co-gen (spreaking rez only) when there's a call for heat. According to the mfgr, it's thermal 12K heat production eff equals the hi-eff furnace or boiler, so why not run the gen? Wear & tear is the lone issue I see if the 1.2-kW is oversized during the day while the family is at work. At night & over weekends, I'd expect it to be undersized.

Seems like an interesting concept worthy of a closer look.

Matt_67

Am I seeing this wrong? It looks like on their website that for 18,500 BTU in you get 12,000 BTU heat + 1.2 kW. Doesn't that equate to about 65% efficiency if that gas would have been burned in a boiler? The idea seems interesting - but - I don't know if it is truly 'free' electricity.

Jeremy Scott

efficiency = (12,000 btu + 1.2 kW x 3413 btu/kw) / 18,500 btu = 87%

jp_2

a true free watt

now if you were to harvest your methane from the septic tank, then you have a true free watt!!!