How Can I Tell If I Am Being RIPPED OFF?

Bick Bickford

I recently started receiving bids for a new heating system. The prices really vary for pretty much the same equipment. They have all said Buderus and Burnham are a better value than Viessmann. Thoughts on that?

How can you tell whose telling the truth? We certainly don't want to pay too much but also want a good job. What are the signs that someone is underhanded? I prefer anonymity because one of our bidders recommended this site.

Thanks

Maine Ken

"Value"? Define value. Everything has its place. Everything comes with a price. Baseline, mid, high end system. What are your desires? System performance, comfort longevity, relationship with installer / service provider for future. What do you want and what are you willing to trade off to get it? I use all three manufacturers products. Each has its place and application. "Ripped off" is extremely subjective. Are you getting references? Site visits? Licensing, permits, insurance?

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Rudnae

ask for references

Homeowner, If any of the companies are worth their salt they won't mind you asking for references. In fact they should be happy to and have a list readily available. Good installers are proud of their work and are typically excited to share this with you. Also, price isn't everything, in fact you should beware of the low bidder. Value is all in the pocket book of the holder. If you save money on a boiler today, you will probably have higher gas bills and require more service of the equipment than higher end "more expensive" equipment. You sound like you need convincing, let your contractors that are quoting you know that, and see what they can do for you. BTW the best boiler is the one installed by someone with experience with it, if that happens to be Buderus then so be it. Hope that helps.

Gordy

Education

You sound a little vague on what it is you are looking to get. Have you educated yourself on what it is you are buying? Its just like buying anything else, the more informed you are about what it is your buying the better off you are.

There is plenty of information out here, get educated is the first step. The above advice is also very good. There are alot of variables from bid to bid. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

Gordy

DanHolohan

Give some points

to the bidder who sent you here. He's not afraid of others having their say about whatever he is telling you.

jp_2

How can you tell whose telling the truth?

the only way you can ever "tell" who's telling the truth is to know more than they do!

D107

Take your time

homeowner here. having been through the experience a year and a half ago, I'd say:

1-don't be in a rush. take the time to educate yourself at this site and others. You can develop a set of questions to ask them that you know the answers to and judge them accordingly.

2-Be willing to pay a fee for a heat loss calculation--that can later be refunded if you hire the contractor. Or get the Slant-Fin free heat loss software and do the calculation yourself. It's not just measuring square footage. Anyone who simply wants to replace an existing boiler without doing such a calculation, or who simply measures the existing radiation (for hot water heat) is probably not worth hiring.

3. Insulate and weatherseal your house as much as possible so you can reduce the size of the required boiler. You can do a heatloss before and after this process.

You may have to meet 10 contractors to find one good one and that's OK. It's worth the wait.

There are probably over 100 components to a good hydronics install, but maybe knowing 10 or so can save you money down the road. Will the zones have isolation valves so circulators can be replaced quickly and cheaply without draining the entire system? Circulators correctly installed pumping away from the expansion tank--not on returns? Expansion tank also installed for the indirect hot water heater connected to the boiler? Will they install a 60 micron oil filter at the oil tank and a 10 micron at the burner?

There are some contractors who exude such great confidence and knowledge --you feel they don't really need your patronage but would love to do the job--that you know they're the one to hire.

Good luck,

David

MIke_Jonas

Radiant contractor here..

Another point of view..
Are they factory trained in the brand they are quoting you? I don't mean some supply house afternoon look-over. Did they travel to a manufacturer or their US facility and take proper Factory Training? Do they have parts for this particular brand ON THEIR TRUCK?

Are they a member of RPA? Certified?
NATE certified?
Do they have business liability insurance?
Do they pull permits? Every state/locality (sp?) is different. I pull permits, and in each city/town I have a separate license and bond to do work under permits.

There can, and will be hacks with the above certs, but it will show someone cares to learn, is trying to learn and has made some effort, in contrast to those that have none of the above. And before any other contractors tell me they have none of the above and how great they are, I trust this will be true, I've seen it to be true, but I'm trying to give a homeowner something other than a moving target to shoot for.

Weezbo

ever since the invention of language...

that question as how do i know who to trust must have crossed human beings minds.

Let Go and Let God is about as close of an answer as i have for you...

now , as to what is the best value on your particular heating system renovation or replacement,...well ,...You would want to be getting some real options and real opinions...

educated opinions pretty much stay on track spelling out variations and variables that need to be accounted for to fulfill your requirements.

some contractors dont want to tell you the bad news...they are reluctant to express the full picture as they may not really have understood your needs on first appraisal,...and once seeing the minor technicalities not wish to have their name on the heating system unless these things are done properly...

so maybe the answer for you is get more than one opinion ,

be willing to understand that there are simply things that you do not know and it is likely that any contractor you hire ,like you,... will simply not know what is hidden in a wall without opening it up to inspection...

there are some 'things' that may have been overlooked in your original installation there is no way to divine this either...

i have installed many heating systems to meet a variety of needs, some products, though similar have very specific advantages ,..though they may seem to be the same thing when you look at them,...

each manufacturer that you have named has a variety of products within the offerings to meet the needs...

ten different contractors can come up with 100 ways to go about an installation...there is far too many divergent ways and means to determine simply by the choice in manufacturing What type of Quality the installation itself may have.

be careful in what you let into your life....


P.S.


this morning, i got a call and the person wanted X ..well,..i wonder where he got my home phone number as basically i answer my phone by appointment only, emergency family matters or a friend.

the voids in the atmosphere suggested to me i would have to listen first, not be rude and send him off on his merry way.

If the customer does not listen as intently to you as they think you ought to be listening to them Fire the customer NOW. it is my experience that it is costly ,aggravating and disruptive for the most part. it is hard to "see it coming"

so when you are into the work ,finish it to completion. Thank God that is over. count your blessings and move on...

i think what i am saying is ,

'its a two way street'

yah thats it *~/:)

one thing for certain, here ,you have found a group of individuals that would want the same consideration being given to their family friends and neighbors....

Unknown

You see,,,

your exact text, word for word, on somebody else's blog with no credit to you?

burnerman_2

try this

get 3 estimates then get 3 jobs that they did 2 years b4 i say this because it takes awhile for any screw ups to show up i could tell you many stories but one job the installer did not clean out the chimney this took awhile if a customer is happy he will brag on you unhappy look out royboy

Darin Cook_5

Pictures

How about asking to see pictures of their work? I carry a photo album and SHOW folks what I have to offer. It sounds simple enough but no one in my area that I know of, does it. Remember a homeowner who calls X, Y, or B heating companies ASSUMES they all provide the same quality of installation. Nothing could be further than the truth!







Darin

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Bruce M

More Information

It would help greatly if you told us what tpe of heatin sytem you presently have and if it is gas or oil or electric. I would also help if you told us what part of te country you are in.

John R. Hall

Value is the contractor's brand name

The true value you get is from the contractor. These are the people who stress professionalsim and customer service IN ADDITION to their knowledge and expertise. Think of it as buying a contractor and not a product. I agree with others that you need to check references and determine who is the best 'character' person for you. A box is a box is a box. But contractors are all unique.

Mitch_6

Bids how many

How many bids are you getting and from who. As a contractor I find my interest and attention to a project go down as the number of bidders go up. I also find it difficult to give a home owner a price when they are unclear of what they want. Full rip out and re install of boiler and near boiler piping and controls (the way it should be done) or just slide the old out and new in. I have been back to many jobs I did not get and they were not what I specified but by then to late.

Also not to start fights with the others but I have found that people that make there living on installs and service seem to be more thorough than fuel suppliers although they cost more to do the installs than someone supplying the fuel. In these cases if I find I am bidding against a large oil supplier that has the H.O. supply a two year service contract with the purchase if equipment or a utility I do not bother to bid.

One other point is I service what I install so I install as if I am the one going out Sunday for the service call down the road. As such if I need to change a pump or other device it is properly balled off and installed in a way I can easily get to it, this takes more time and money on the install but speeds the repair or in some cases with proper install methods avoids an unneeded repair.

Just my $0.02 plus maybe a little venting.

Mitch S.

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Bruce Stevens_2

If you don't want to start arguments then

don't make misleading statments,

""Also not to start fights with the others but I have found that people that make there living on installs and service seem to be more thorough than fuel suppliers although they cost more to do the installs than someone supplying the fuel.""

Here we find that those that service what they sell do things more correct compared to those that install and walk away, whether it be oil companies or plumbers or heat service co. As an oil co we loose bids all the time to plumbers and heating contractors that specialize in installs then the customer wonders why it costs more to service when we get called to fix something.

GW

ahhh yes

and so goes the tail spin of contracting. The HO wants the best price (OK, lets call it cheapest). Everything is all wonderful until it has to be re-worked, or the guy is nowhere to be found when there's an issue the following winter.

There is a local oil company here who installs gas heating, yet when it breaks they refer their customer to another one-man HVAC service co. Do you think the HO is told the full story when the price gets dropped on the kitchen table? I would think not.

There are tons of 'install only' companies out there. There are tons of plumbers who can't read a multi meter or set gas pressure.

So, if you're gonna hire someone, how about trying a mystery call at some evening or night time hour to see what happens?


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GW

my message was not meant for Bruce

Sorry I made it seem that way.

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Mad Dog_2

Thats what I tell prospective clients.......

Check me out...do your homework....Go To The Wall Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

Yep, you really need to know exactly what your goals are

It could take a awhile and a lot of comparison. Also, as someone else said...."beware the low bidders." Mad Dog

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Bruce M

I will have to disagree

Ron Jr works for a big oil company here and I will put the quality of his work against anybody. He is often called to work in very tight areas (Levittown) and he still manages to do a superior job. I have seen work done by so called installers and contractors that was horrendous. Much of that work was done at high cost. You don't always get what you pay for.

Rich L.

What's value to you?

How to avoid being "ripped off"? Educate yourself. Find out what makes a system work properly and be willing to pay for it. It's human nature to want the lowest price but to be the lowest bidder everytime you have to skimp.

I don't ever shoot to be the lowest bidder. I quote jobs to be installed correctly, be servicable, and operate properly. I try to educate my potential customer on what needs to be done to achieve all of this. I pull permits and am licensed to work in the communities I serve.

As said above the more bidders involved, the less interested I become. Not because I wouldn't like to do the job, but because I'm not willing to cut corners to get the work. The more bidders involved the more the homeowner appears to searching for that bottom dollar contractor, and I'm not him.

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

No, you don't ALWAYS get high quality for a high price

But the odds are much better. Of all the screwed up jobs we come across, the vast majority were botched by low-bid hacks, g.c.s-doing their own work, et cetera. I always make it a point to get a little history from the HO. 9 outta 10 sheepishly admit they. "...thought they were gonna save money...and, the guy 'seemed' reputable and that he would do a good job." Just my experience. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

I'm with you, Rich

Usually, from that initial call, we can seperate them from quality leads. Those are the folks, that will have to pay out "trip charge." Mad Dog

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Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

Yeah..........................................

Does that not impress you as the HO that he was willing to send you here...to further edify you? I would say he is probably THE GUY whom you should hire. Mad Dog

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Rich L.

Signs

We have a sign hanging on the wall in the office that says we don't shoot to be the lowest bidder but rather try for the middle.

Our advice to the customer that chooses the lowest bidder: put aside a little extra money to bring the system up to par IF things don't work out. Not saying that always happens, but more times than not that's the case. And after we're done fixing it and making it work right, you'll have spent more than if we would have done it for you the in the first place.

Choose your "value" wisely.....