System design help needed

PlumberPaul

I'm new to the wall but I hope someone can steer me in the right direction. I want to design a new system for my house. It has primarily steam heat but I have added two different zones of radiant heat to the upstairs floors. I also have a basement hydronic baseboard loop. As well, I would like to replace the water heater with an indirect fired unit at the same time. Do I begin to explain all the details here hoping for someone who can help with piping configurations, or can someone direct me to someone whom I can work with (I'm willing to pay for services) directly? I am a NYC contractor with decent heating knowledge, so it wont be a struggle for the right engineering mind to help me out.....Thanks

Al Letellier_9

design help

I do the kind of work you ask about but am too far away (Maine). I suggest you get together with a really good heating guy and pay him to sit and help you through this project. Even though you say you may be able to do it, you will need help along the way, and having a good heat guy in your back pocket could be the most valuable tool you own for this project. Good luck.

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PlumberPaul

I know the house will heat......but.....

I would like to know that I am not missing out on using the newest and best technology out there.....primary/secondary.....Taco's X-pump block....are some options I have given thought. With so many types of heat and the want for the indirect water heater....I just want to explore other minds before I commit to a specific design

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Since there's no such thing as a condensing (or truly modulating) steam boiler, you are missing out on the "newest and best technology".

You can certainly add hot water components to a steam system, but there are some pretty strict rules regarding the proportion and how things must be piped.

Frankly I would use the smallest number and simplest possible controls for the hot water portion.

A simple, fixed setting mixing valve is likely all you need for the radiant. While you may well need to use a water-to-water heat exchanger, I can't see where primary/secondary piping or pumping in the hot water portion would be beneficial.

PlumberPaul

I actually have 1000 ft of radiant under wood flooring.....and a 200 ft loop to the second floor bathroom in ceramic tile/ cement mud job. This means I need two temperatures for these radiant zones as well as hydronic at a higher temperature to the indirect water heater. These variables of hydronic off a steam boiler are critical to be done properly (as well as sized properly). Also I obviously cant send the steam boilers water into my radiant tubing

[Deleted User]

on page 172 in dan's 'how come?' book,

he has a sketch of an indirect water heater piped to a steam boiler

[Deleted User]

and again, as in my above post,

dan has a sketch on page 170 of a radiant loop off of a steam boiler

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Systems where the steam boiler's water goes directly into the emitters have definitely been used, but I believe such generally isn't recommended for floor radiant.

The indirect however can use the boiler water, I believe and ideally, it would be sized such that it absorbs the full output of the boiler when only it calls for heat. This may or may not be practical for your situation, but if so it means you don't have to worry about the boiler producing any quantity of steam when the indirect is calling. If an indirect of such capacity is not practical, you have to control the system in some way such that you don't get steam unless the house wants steam (e.g. cycle the boiler on an aquastat when the indirect calls).

Back to the floors:

Is radiant under wood flooring tube bare or in plates? Have you computed the supply temperature required given the heat transfer method and construction of the floor?

If the required supply temp is fairly low (probably due to good, heavy plates) you may well get lucky and find that its return temp is well suited for the bathroom with mud job. If not, likely all you need is a fixed bypass valve.

While it could be done, it is best to avoid allowing the radiant portions to fire the boiler. If you do, again you will have to limit the temp inside the boiler so that steam is not produced unless the steam portion is also calling for heat. In other words, any thermostat(s) for the radiant will be slaves to the one for steam. Remember that a good quantity of heat will be available to the radiant after the steam thermostat is satisifed--you not only have the water inside the boiler, but more significantly you have the condensate returning back to it.

In your case, some very good engineering and simple controls will [probably] be far better than sophisticated controls and piping.

PlumberPaul

Thanks Mike T. Youre probably right....I'm over thinking the project to some degree. I guess I was thinking that I would like each seperate form of heat (each zone) to independantly fire the boiler, but only bring the boiler water to the necessary temp. If the boiler is already making steam for the steam radiators, then a mixing valve or valves would regulate the amount of energy is distributed to other zones. The indirect is pretty simple though....it will regulate itself by way of its own aquastat which will start a pump only when needed. I guess I will try to design a piping diagram and post it here looking for feedback. Thanks again

george_20

heat loop off a steam system

Have a hot water heat loop off a steam boiler that heats second floor of house. problem is I am getting steam up into the system I have check after pump that pushes water up loop and flow valve on return line over boiler before dropping down into the return line.Pump pulls water from bottum of boiler on front side of boiler and pushes water up and back into return in backside of boiler. Any suggestions. Thanks