Repair of 1950's radiant slab floor heating - HELP!

Ken D.

The house in Yardley?

Michael Graeff

Repair of 1950's radiant slab floor heating

Dear Heating Help,

I recently purchased a home that was designed in the 1950's in Bucks County, PA (architect was Princeton guy named Jules Gregory - but I don't hold that against him - Go Quakers!). It is a modern glass box on a slab on grade that was originally outfitted with a hot water radiant floor heating system. This system was abandoned at some point in the last ten or twenty years and replaced with perimeter finn tubes that have their own issues at this point.

I am familiar with the newer systems as my barn office was renovated with a new Wirsbo Pex-Al-Pex system in a slab on grade with a Viessman condensing boiler. This system rocks.

We would like to restore the old radiant heat in the 50's house if possible. And was told that there are methods of "re-ling" the old pipes - something that was done to the original systems in the variouse Levittown developments. I need to confirm if they are copper, steel, or aluminum - not sure. Can you advise in anyway.

Much appreciated,
Michael Graeff

Michael Graeff

Re-lining is the word

Sorry for typo - I meant to say "re-lining" the old radiant tubing in the last message.

Bruce M

In Floor Radiant

Do you have the original plans for the house? If not, were they filed with the township? Very often the original plans will point you in the right direction. Are any of the original controls in place? Can you see where the supply or return piping exits the floor? Is there a tag on the heating system that may indicate who serviced the sytem way back when? You can do a hydrostatic test of the pipes that are in place. You can also use thermal imaging. Sometimes in floor radiant sytems are abandoned despite the fact that they are not leaking. As you may know, almost all of the in floor radiant systems in Levittown developed leaks because the concrete corroded the copper pipes.

Derheatmeister

Levittown Type house!

I've lived in a house in Closter,NJ, Across from the city. This house was a After war "Levittown Type" of House.In approx 1988 some of the Black iron pipe that comes back to the Mechanical room had rusted at the Manifold!So I jacked up a couple Sqft in the Mech. Room and replaced it. Worked great for about 10 years (not very efficient, no edge insulation)then there was another leak somewhere in the Slab. the plumbers then just installed Baseboard. You can always install a Flooring system i.e. Roth panels. or Panel rads. i.e. Buderus,Runtal.Myson. Good luck. Richard from Heatmeister..

Michael Graeff

Finding answers

Thanks for the reply Bruce.

I have to check with the Solebury, PA township for plans. My research on the architect' archives (deceased) has hit dead ends so far.

We settle on the house in a few weeks so I can't get back in just yet, but I there is a shallow pit in the concrete in the mechanical room where the ends of the various loops are still exposed - not much else except pipe ends. Will have to look for other clues, tags, etc but the place was very poorly maintained over the years with many owners since originally built.

Will keep you posted when I can get access, identify piping better, and try the pressure test. In the meantime it would be helpful to learn more about any pex product that might be re-snaked through the existing lines. A tech friend mentioned that there exists a softer & thinner pex that can be pulled through existing lopps then treated with a hardener once the whole system is lined. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

I plan to call around to Long Island, NY heating contractors and suppliers to see if this is reality or I'm chasing a ghost.

Thanks for the input.

Michael Graeff

Roth looks interesting

Thanks Derheatmeister,

The Roth panels look like a nice option. Have not seen them in action but might work under hardwood flooring that we were thinking about without door height problems. Looks like loops are on 6" centers so I expect no problem with heat "striping". My only concern is that I am so spoiled by system imbedded deeper into concrete it won't be as good. Will take closer look and let you know.

MGA

jp_2

pipes in concrete

you should notice no difference in heating from the roth system compared to pipes deep in concrete.

what you will notice is less fuel bills in fall from not needing to heat all that concrete up, along with the heat being lost from the concrete to the ground. you probably can use lower water temps too.

I wouldn't be concerned about cutting doors, other than entry doors, its really easy. what you gain will far out weigh what you loose in ceiling height.

added: snaking pex in old piping would turn out to be a real bad idea, the pex would have poor contact to the surfaces is needs to heat, also any corrosion would further inhibit heat flow.

Bruce M

Ends of Loops

If the ends of the loops are exposed it should be easy to tell if they are copper or blackpipe. Another lead may be the name on the deed for the original owner of the house. They may have relatives that are still in the area. There may be a certificate of occupancy that has the mane of the original installer of the heating system. Am I correct in thinking that this is a single house that is not in an area with identical houses in the neighborhood?

Bruce M

Link to Jules Gregory

Here is a link to Jules Gregory's partner:

http://www.michenermuseum.org/bucksartists/artist.php?artist=117&page=486

Here is a link to someone who worked with Jules in Princeton:

http://www.arcspace.com/architects/Moore_Ruble_Yudell/moore_ruble_yudell_bio.htm

Here is Jules Gregory's daughter:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D7143BF930A25755C0A965948260