The Lowest Bidder

RianS

This was in our morning paper today and I thought I would share it with you.
"The Lowest Bidder"
It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the job it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and, if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.
John Ruskin
Author/Economist
1819-1900

gerry gill

sounds like a smart man..

we need more of them..

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hvacfreak

Imagine...

Imagine paying too much and getting great service ? Saying that you don't like the routing of a pipe or duct and someone showing up to change it ? Who would know how to act ?

Bruce M

That Quote is Not by John Ruskin

That quote, which has often been attributed to John Ruskin, is not written by him. The Ruskin Centre in England and other noted researchers have not found it in any of his writings. Those who have read any of Ruskin's work understand that his style and substance was much different than that particular quote. My experience is that this quote is often used by those who charge too much for a particular item. I refer you to this statement by a noted proessor:
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/ruskin/quotation.html

The reason that Wal-Mart is sucessful is because they usually sell the identical item for less money. Their millions of satisfied customers happily shop there because they are selling the same item for less money.

jackchips_2

The only

"guarantee" when you go with the highest bidder-you pay more.

:-)

Jack

Kevin O. Pulver_2

John Barba taught me years ago

that "all things being equal, people buy on price, but our job is to show them that all things are NOT equal."
WalMart got started on the slogan, "Made in America", now they've changed that to, "always the lowest price".
I predict their next slogan when they are the only game in town (and no longer worried about low price) will be "take
it or leave it." Kevin

ScottMP

Bruce

WalMart also bullies its suppliers into selling products to them at a cost so low they the supplier can not stay in business. Many business have failed trying to be the "lowest price - always ".

Scott

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jp_2

has NO meaning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

someone is always going to be the lowest bidder!

what if Hot rod and ME bid a job, is the lowest bidder here assumed the hack?

Bruce M

They have a Choice

All of the suppliers to Wal-Mart have a choice and since I see a huge number of suppliers who have chosen to do business with Wal-Mart that is usually good for the consumer. The increased output by the supplier usually means a decrease in unit cost due to the economy of scale. I realize that there are those who do not like Wal-Mart and you have the right to shop elsewhere, usually at a higher cost. Do you buy your gas for your vehicles at the highest cost station?

Dan Foley

Comparison

Bruce,

Your comparison is not accurate. Gas is a commodity that is essentially the same at every gas station. In contrast, the quality of a heating or mechanical system is dependent upon the skill level and craftsmanship of the designer/installer and varies widely. Buyer Beware! - DF

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Bruce M

Not Trying To Compare

You may think that gas is essentially the same but there are hundreds of different blends depending on the time of year and location. If I go to Wal-Mart and I am not happy with the product I can usualy return it or exchange it. The customer cannot do that because there are not a set of quality standards for the installation of a heating system. Too many installers do not even read the instruction manuals because they believe they are smarter or have a better or cheaper or easier way of doing things. Unfortunately the price of a heating system does not necessarily determine the quality of the system. On this web site the majority of installers are among the best. In the real world it seems to me that the majority of installers are not among the best. A month's reading of questions on the wall should verify that point.

Dan Foley

Quality

Bruce,

You won't get an argument from me. I see and repair too many botched systems to disagree with your comments. The thing is, the same can be said of any profession. It is up to the buyer to perform due diligence and confirm the level of competence of the provider before he parts with his hard earned dollar.

Persepective often lends clarity to a situation. I am curious as to your perspective: are you a contractor, homeowner, rep, manufacturer, supplier? - DF

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Jim_65

No,

they could just not have the understanding of the cost of doing business and remaining in business. Additionally that low bidder could be a one man shop who does not have the overhead.

Something to think about.

Rich L.

jp - Low Bid

Just because a bid is lowest does not necessarily mean the guy's a hack, as shown by your example.

You simply can't be the lowest bidder all of the time and offer the best quality. Laws of economics and such. Also, unfortunatly, the highest bidder is not a guarantee it's the best.

Comes back to a responsibility of the consumer, educate yourself, and ask questions. If one guy comes in lowest, ask for details on the bids, make sure your getting like bids. If you're comfortable, go with him.

Just my .02 and for the record, I'm rarely the low bidder, and am still plenty busy.

Bruce M

I Have a Different Take on That

Dan, I will have to respectfull disagree with saying that it is true of every profession. Look at gardeners or landscapers as they like to be called. In this area there are lots of them and they usually visit weekly. They do not charge all that much but their work is of consistently high quality. My garbagemen come to the house twice a week and they always do a great job. They have more pride in their work than do many HVAC installers. It has to do with pride in your work product and the ability to have a receptive mind in order to learn to do things the correct way.

[Deleted User]

I think comparing a garbage man to an HVAC installer is a ridiculous comparison Bruce M. Think about the tasks involved, skills and tools required. I'm not saying that HVAC installers always do a good job and agree with some of your statements. There are good and bad in every profession as someone already stated. I've known people that have gotten differing medical opinions that completely contraindicate one another. I've had friends take the advice of lawyers only to find out they shouldn't have. I've brought my vehicles in for the same problem 3 or 4 times to eventually have it fixed. You seem to have it out for the HVAC profession in general. I've read your comments on other threads. I wonder what happened to make you feel this way.

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ScottMP

I agree Mike

It’s a poor comparison. A garbage man shows up, lifts a barrel and dumps it in the back of the truck. So easy even.... Bruce could do it. Sorry Bruce couldn’t help it

It’s also good to note that many suppliers of Wal-Mart and other big box stores have found that the Only way to provide product at the price approved by Wal-Mart is to cheapen the product. A gear is plastic instead of metal; a shaft is fiberglass instead of stainless. You DO NOT get the same product at a lower price. Those companies that do try and compete at the "approved" price can not continue financial and sometimes are bought out by the big box store.

Is that best for business. Or the unknowing consumer who thinks they gotten a bargain ?

Scott


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Bruce M

I am Not Comparing a Garbageman

You missed the whole point of what I am saying. I am saying that no matter what you do, do it so that you are the best. In place of a HVAC mechanic I could substitute auto mechanic or a dozen other professions. I have not had any personal problems with HVAC mechanics but I have seen endless examples and stories of their handiwork. On the Wall, you are mostly preaching to the converted. Too many oil burner mechanics don't install the proper nozzle, don't set the pump pressure, don't check for CO, don't properly clean out, don't use a torque wrench, don't read installation manuals, don't calculate for the correct circulator, don't do a heat loss for sizing a boiler and so on. I am sure almost everyone has seen the results of this. My point in all of this is that highest bid very often has no relation to the quality of work. I have seen the photos of those who do take pride in their work. I do not consider them HVAC installers; they are a cut above that, they are artists.

ScottMP

But you are Bruce

Your saying they do a great job and I am saying its easy to do a great job when all you do is pick up a barrel.

I would argue that most oil techs who do a poor job and don't read the manuels are the low bidder and you get what you pay for.

You see it half empty I see it half full.

I would argue that very often the highest bidder DOES have a relationship to quality work.

Scott



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Rudnae

Did you actually read the quotation you linked to?

Bruce, I'll admit that I'm a sucker for old fashioned straight to the point quotations, such as "the Lowest Bidder" (still as far as I'm concerned by John Ruskin). The quotation that you refered to is: "There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey." Whilst similar in nature and spirit, obviously not the same quotation... did you think that no one would check? This is the wall, not some back woods website. I would expect that you treat the other posters with as much respect as you feel that you deserve. JMHO

Bruce M

I Do Not Agree

Many of the oil techs who operate that way work for oil companies. Most are paid a salary that does not give any incentive for quality work or exactness. Many companies stress speed instead of quality. That is not to indict all oil techs or all companies. There are some great ones out there that do quality work.

Bruce M

Of Course I Read It

That is the reason I posted it. Do you think I would post a URL if I did not want people to read it? Here is another link which states:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Ruskin
"Known as the Common Law of Business Balance, this quotation has been widely attributed to Ruskin but has never been sourced to any of his works." Maybe you can tell us the body of work where this can be found? Perhaps you can tell us what country you are in. Is that a pseudonoym that you are using?

ScottMP

Bruce

What is your background, that you are qualified to make these assumptions??

Many people read this site and by your comments would get the impression that we are mostly poorly trained wrench monkeys who are whipped by straw bosses.

That couldn’t farther from the truth and I would like to know where your experience comes from ??

I have thirty years of experience and run a successful business … You?

Scott


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[Deleted User]

It is true that you can find a lot of pictures of poorly installed equipment done by installers that most likely do not frequent this website. (Most were probably the low ballers, DIY, or friends trying to help out.) Is there a website open to the public like this one for- let's say, garbagemen? What about for landscapers? Fast food employees, car wash attendants, for retail employees? How about Doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, teachers, appliance repair, commercial fishermen? This website shows the good, the bad, and the ugly. Maybe we should stop showing pictures of bad jobs? But what about when a homeowner comes here looking for help and uses a picture to help explain the scenario? The professionals on this website more times than not help out people and get nothing but the satisfaction of helping in return. If I can help, I don't care if I'll never meet the person or get a job out of it. I help because I've gotten much more from this website, the professionals here, and Dan H. than I could ever repay. Thanks guys.

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Leo G_101

here's a great

example!

http://www.canada.com/northshorenews/news/story.html?id=9ef68610-5aeb-4ab0-ad98-30689b6f1a3c&k=45180

Leo G

Rod Kotiga

Don't we all ask questions on this site at one time or another ? That's the foundation of this site. I hope that no one decides not to ask a question in fear that they might not be among "the best". This is how we all learn to be among the best.

Rod

Rudnae

Yes Bruce, you have sussed me out! It is a pseudonoym, however if you would have checked by my email address, my full name is listed there. I have absolutely no reason to hide nor am I ashamed to be Canadian. I find it amusing that you would try to attack me for pointing out you referenced the wrong material. As I'm sure you know Wikepedia can be edited by anyone, with out referencing who made those changes, and there by can be interesting reading but with out creditable information to back it up may as well be fiction. You will, I'm sure, note that whilst they reference which author discredits the original quote "... lawful prey" (I love that!)there is not mention of the same gentalman discrediting the "Lowest Bidder". Strange. More to the point no, I can not tell you which body of work that quotation comes from, however, can you tell me which ones it is not in? Trying to call me out for substandard research, is in fact calling the kettle black. I was merely trying to point out that the quotation you were refencing was not the lowest bidder and that perhaps you should check your references before spouting off. Take it for what it is, I'm not looking to get in a fight with you.

heatboy_2

Caveat Emptor

While you don't always get what you pay for, you never get what you don't pay for.

To think so, is foolish.

Economics 101

Bruce M

Yes, You are from the Place where they kill Baby Seals

I understand the quota for this year's baby seal hunt in Canada is 275,000 which is an increase of 5,000 from last year. Maybe you can get up to 300,000 for next year. I can give you many more links that will show that the alleged quotes by Ruskin do not have a source but I am not sure the readers on the Wall are interested in a Victorian writer who died in 1900. My point is that there are two very similar quotations that have been attributed to John Ruskin and which have never been sourced. Professor George P. Landow, who is the foremost scholar of John Ruskin, is unable to source either of those two quotes. You have admitted that you are unable to source either of these quotes. I am not sure what your point is but I would be happy to learn what it is. Yes, I have family members in the Great White North.

ScottMP

What good does that comment do Bruce ???

What did you gain, or any of us, from that comment??

It was childish and immature.

I think it was uncalled for and an apology is in order.

Scott


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DanHolohan

Bruce,

I don't care for this comment and the way you are addressing one of my guests.

Bruce M

Largest Slaughter of Marine Mammals on Earth

You might want to look at some information about the slaughter of baby seals, it may amaze you as to what is taking place in Canada. The more people learn about this slaughter the better it will be to stop it. It appears that the quota is 325,000 baby seals a year. I think it is the people of Canada that need to apologize for this.

http://www.hsus.org/protect_seals.html

http://www.kintera.org/site/pp.asp?c=aeIJLTOsGlF&b=445437

ScottMP

It has nothing to do with heating

Or this conversation.

Bruce this is a heating site dedicated to those who are interested in the pursuit of excellence in that field.

Please explain to me where this subject is associated with your terse comments ??

Scott


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DanHolohan

Bruce,

you are trying my patience.

Bruce M

Not Trying to Impress You

Many of the topics here have little or nothing to do with heating. It is interesting that you are trying to control what is said here. Your ideas deserve respect but others do not have to agree with you.

ScottMP

Yes thats true Bruce

But those other subjects are not insulting to guest on this site.

I will leave controlling of what is discussed here to our host. I have complete trust in his judgment.

Scott

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Rich L.

Bruce ?????

How we went from lowest bidder quotes that we obviously don't know who said, and reguardless are on the mark IMHO, To killing baby seals? I'm having trouble keeping up with this one.

Ok, I'll take a turn at it, Bruce, what is your back ground? I'm curious about your perspective here. This is the third post asking in this thread.

"I am curious as to your perspective: are you a contractor, homeowner, rep, manufacturer, supplier? - DF"

"What is your background, that you are qualified to make these assumptions??"

"That couldn’t farther from the truth and I would like to know where your experience comes from ??" - Scott

Rich L

Bob Bona_4

are you

kidding me, Bruce?

I applaud your quest for accuracy of who quoted what but come on man, we get it, we get the quote. No royalties are going to the originator.

Then the seal thing. I mean....?

Chris S

low bidder

What about those of us that bid municipal work- where you have to be the low bidder or it's just an exercise in estimating.

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Big Will

I club seals

I love that bumper sticker I laugh every time I see it. For the most part I agree about the lowest bid method being the worst way to make a decision about a contractor. I do the best work I can and never use materials I feel are inferior I pay my guys well. I make a decent living and try to keep my over head low. So on average I am in the middle of a set of three bids. Although with the economy down their are a lot of lowballers out their right now. And with them you pay for what you get we have all seen it.
However I know of four contractor in my area who pay their guys by the job and have little or no quality control that charge ridiculuos prices in one case $300 per hour and pay the guy $60. If I am up against them I am always the lowest bid. Yet I know from following their work that my quality is higher.
My point is this seems to be a very extreme and unnecessary argument. Like anything else the saying or quote is true to a point. In this case greed or low overhead disproves the saying. But all things considered going with the lowest bid because its the lowest bid is foolish at best. The fact that the government at almost all levels works that way just makes me sick.