To barrier pex or not

Couderay

Seems to me you could have used copper and NEVER had a problem. Yep what does them S.S. componets cost, back then I assure you copper was cheaper.

Rod Kotiga

To barrier pex or not

Hello all,

Iv'e been surfing this site often since I first heard about it and have found it comforting to know that I'm not alone in having some of the same problems as others in this buisness across the contry have had in the past.
The question I have is that I have come to what I think is a pattern in radiant systems I have installed and serviced in the past. There was a time where I didn't use a barrier pex on a few systems because I figured I'm using glycol with corrsion inhibitors in the system mix with a spirovent so what's the worry. Well I visited a job where there was only water in the system, a water make up valve and non-barrier tubing and the pumps were starting to flake off bits of what looked like cast Iron rust in the wye strainer so the pumps were changed to stainless but on jobs where there was a glycol feed tank with a good mixture in the non barrier pex systems the the cast iron part of the pumps were solid as a rock and not clogging the strainers. I only use barrier pex these days for extra protection against oxygen. Would it be safe to say that non barrier is okay if the glycol/water mixture is kept up on a yearly basis without any problems ? Thanks, Rod

Derheatmeister

I say NO,No and No.

And Why? If you do the math it is Maybe $ 1500 that you are saving if you compare it to Ox Barrier( On a 3000 sq ft home). And you are not really saving it!!How many houses where you installing a year like this? 10 ? saved 15000 dollars ??? Is it worth it?.

Once the Problems show up ,and you have Corrosion and you have to change the circs for Bronze or SS,the Chemicals,the Expansion tanks,the feed Valves,the air scoop,and the Boiler,What did you save?

What kind of boilers do you have installed in these Situations?.. Hopefully Stainless!.. SS Exchangers????

Keep in mind, that most manufactures WILL void the Warranty of their Boiler and Indirect water heaters when you subject them to none Oxy barrier!!!


If your area still allows this...( Homeowner install or not ),Then I think it is about time that they re wright the code. That will also take out the Corner Cutters and put THEM on the same level.. Sorry i just see to many bad systems...

Richard from Heatmeister.

Rod Kotiga

Richard,
Thanks for input. I only use barrier o2 nowadays. I also see those same systems. We also went to potable expansion tanks because of there plastic liner that I've heard lasts longer in radiant systems against harsh water and let some of the air out to match system presure. Out west you cant sell a cast iron boiler or baseboard, around here the boilers are always stainless and it hangs on the wall or nothing and air scoops are totally 80s.
Spirovents or Sparcovents only. I've contemplated using s.s. pumps as well but that might be overkill. It would be nice to see a stainless pump with integral check in the 15-58 Grudfos pumps and the 26 series since those seem to be the most used in radiant jobs. We gave up trying to save money on system materials long ago. I'd much rather stand back and look at our diamond plated panels that we build and know that I can't put any better materials on them for the system we are bulding than to sit there and say could of, should of, would of, if ya know what I mean.

Rod

Rod Kotiga

Copper ?

Sorry Joe I don't follow, copper what ? Do you mean bronze pumps ? Stainless 15-42s run about 200 bucks as oppossed to 80 in cast.

Rod at Piping Hot

Wayco Wayne_2

While we're on the subject

I looked at a system where the radiant floors were barrier pex, but the piping from the manifolds back to the buffer tank and water source heat pump were cpvc, instead of copper. Does cpvc have any barrier. What kind of trouble could the homeowner be in for if any? I'm sure with the price of copper the installing contractor saved a buck or 2, but at what cost to the system future? WW

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Rod Kotiga

Yikes ! Good question.

Rod-

Couderay

copper

No not bronze pumps. Copper pipe or tubing is what i was calling for. Yes pex has a place, alot of people use it. I just like copper. It's been around a long time and in a closed system done right it will outlast us.

[Deleted User]

No barrier on PVC or CPVC... however...

you MIGHT be able to talk Scott into selling you a roll of RadianTape, and if you apply it to the exterior of the CPVC pipe, you will then have an O2 barrier of the finest type. Metal!

I am in the same camp as the Heatmeister on this one. I'm hoping to make it illegal to use anything but barrier type tube in the next code go around.

Most of the inspectors I've spoken with concur.

ME

Drew_2

Hydronic CPVC

Do Not use propylene glycol in CPVC or PVC. Both will fail.
Also, question use of other chemicals in these pipes.

jackchips_2

Double

post. First time and still don't know how it happened-LOL.

jackchips_2

Interesting Drew,

as Massachusetts has just approved CPVC for use on acid waste and special hazardous waste systems.

Evidently a couple of manufacturers have submitted and had accepted CPVC and solvent welded fittings for installation on these systems so, as a plumber, I'm wondering why they could not be used with glycol or other chemicals?

Jack, the non-chemist.

Kevin O. Pulver_2

I understand the thinking

but not sure I agree it should be illegal. On an enormous system with lots of tube and very few circulators it might pay to just to a totally non-ferrous system. Stainless boiler, copper piping, bronze circs, potable expansion tank, and non-barrier tube. That is after all an acceptable method of controlling corrosion and the owner should have the choice IMHO. Kevin

hot_rod

CPVC fire sprinklers require glycerin

as a antifreeze. Do not use glycols in PVC or CPVC. Or zinc coated fittings.

hr

Home Depot Employee

The discussion is about radiant floor

Copper doesn't belong in the floor.

Industry learned that lifespan question years ago

Couderay

Copper in the floor

I beg to differ. Plenty of houses built right after WWII around here, still running radiant thru copper. If its done right, there is no better.

Derheatmeister

I think you mean Glass lined Expansion Tanks,Which are the tank's that i use when i am Fixing other "plumbers" Problems.

Out West: were are you at? I am on the Continental div. in CO !

Yes and to "Streamline" all of my Installs Nowadays i have a Pattern that i developed that fits multiple situations in the smallest space , This is all Prefabed in a Shop (In a Controlled environment) Pressure tested, Polished, when i get a Contract for the job this prefab is pulled of the shelve and hung in the mech room the boiler is then interfaced with the piping Venting, Combustion Air, Electrical, Gas, Dial it in finished.looks nice and the pricing is a "Flat Rate" Plug and play.

Maybe someday ,Time for Diamond Plates...

[Deleted User]

Kevin....

The problem is a lack. A lack of maintenance by the HO, and a lack of knowledge by the repairing contractor. If it is done with O2 barrier tubing, even if they decide to ignore their water, there are no consequences.

On the lack of side, very few contractors really pay good attention to detail, and will use a copper fin tube boiler, with the thought that it is non ferrous, when in reality, the tube header sheets are mild steel, and in most cases, the header cover is cast iron.

After seeing the debacle that was Entran2, I will never support the use of non barrier tube unless I am in total control, i.e. PE for underground snowmelt distribution, required fluid maintenance. The catch 22 is that if I do get rules passed, I too will be looking for another alternative method and material...

Oh well...

ME

Rod Kotiga

Derheatmister, I'm in Sun Valley Idaho. Glad to meet 'cha. Yes I did mean Glass lined tanks. Flat rate huh cool, how do you do that by zone or something ? Wait 'till you get a sheet of diamond plate behind your work, You'll be lookin' at like a chick in jewelry store! Besides it sounds like your craftmanship deserves it. About 90 bucks for a 4x8 sheet.

Rod at Piping Hot

ScottRW

Het Ros K.

A fellow Idahovian. I'm just a wee bit North of you in the Coeurd'Alene area. Got snow????
Got any pics of your diamond plate install? Sounds cool. To respond to this post, I have only used non barrier on one house, Mine. It's an open loop, non pressurized system. Heat source is a HeatMor boiler. Runs on waste oil or wood. Nice system. No worries about corrosion, as I used bronze pumps. Waste oil is free, and I have a reliable source.
Scott

Derheatmeister

The Flate rate is base on i.e.: #1 the boiler incl. the rack and the piping under the boiler,#2 the pri /sec injection loop with the "Spirovent the Isoflanges, the circ ,the Strainer, the PBV again this is all prebfabed pattern. and #3 all the manifolding which is mostly Caleffi with Flow indicators/Balancing Valves.Then there is all the small stuff that always depends on the Situation, like the Venting,gas, Drain for Condensate, Neutralizer.Just makes the estimating easier..Yes and the walls need to be Painted before i get into the Boiler room,It Tees off the Mudslingers some times , I guess they love to sling Mud all over the Pipes,never understud why!

Yeah can't wait to use some diamond plate. Can't get it in the high County , Must make a "Denver Trip soon , What Gauge/Thickness are you using?? maybe not to thick? Make's it easier to work with? Are you using water to cool it when your cutting Holes With a hole saw? Maybe i'll use some on my Mobile Display.

Rod Kotiga

It's thin, 1/8 inch aluminum. It gets put on top of a 3/4 sheet of melamine which is very flat and straight. It cuts real easy with a 18v circ saw. No need to cool it dowm with water if you have to drill it, your hole saw goes through it like butter. Then we get 3/4x 1/16 inch aluminum corner angle from Home Depot to picture frame it up. We also use unistrut to hold all the pipes away from the panel and cover the ends of the strut with those green vinyl slip on caps from Watts radiant.

Rod

Unknown

I have to call you out on this one more time mark.

You can't code the lowest common denominator on everything. What next, no conventional boilers because someone used to mod/cons might try to vent them in PVC?

Code a warning label be present or something, but don't try to make a whole class of pipe that works just fine in some jobs (but that I personally never use) illegal. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, entirely.

Rod Kotiga

Hi Scott,

Yes tons of snow but these 40 degree days are chewing away at it real good like. Who's your reliable source for waste oil a automotive shop ? My wifes family lives in Coeurd'Alene and a good buddy of mine has a Chrysler/Nissan dealership on the highway in Post Falls. I'll be up there with the fam for Lost In The 50s as we are every year. Sandpoint is where my wife was born and raised 'till she went off to college. I'll take a picture of one of the panels that we've recently built but I haven't the slightest idea on how to put it up as an attachment here. Someone will have to walk me through it like I'm a 3 yr old.

Rod

Unknown

it's also a massive waste of money, time and labor.

Seriously the problem isn't that the fellow used PEX. The problem is he didn't use an oxygen barrier PEX.

Kevin O. Pulver

I understand ME

You are certainly correct about the potential problems.
I'm just generally not in favor of more sweeping legislation. Smoking has pretty dangerous potential, but I'm not for laws to outlaw the practice. To me the height of hypocrisy is when the government passes laws allowing women to murder their unborn child, then tells a biker he must wear a helmet on his head. Then they will ticket the woman if she doesn't put the baby in a car seat. It's okay to KILL it, but for goodness sake, don't ENDANGER it.
Kevin

ScottRW

My waste oil source is Kootenai County Fire & Rescue.

I'm a volunteer firefighter, so I get all the oil that the shop gets. I also have a friend who has an automotive shop in Hayden.
To add an attachment, click on "attachments below the text area.

ScottRW

My waste oil source is Kootenai County Fire & Rescue.

I'm a volunteer firefighter, so I get all the oil that the shop gets. I also have a friend who has an automotive shop in Hayden.
To add an attachment, click on "attachments" below the text area. You'll be prompted to the next screen and so on. It walks you thru it. I'm looking around here to see if the 1/8" diamond plate is available. I'm a little shy of using however, only because I'd hate to bugger it up by drilling a hole I didn't need. Seems I always do that at least once on every project.
Scott

Mark Eatherton

It's your perrogative Rob...

But until you've walked a mile in my (and the inspectors) shoes and have seen the destruction that occurs from the misuse of these products, I don't think you really have much influence. However, you too can voice your opinion at the open code hearings and try and beat it back... if you feel it necessary.

As for the boiler comment, that is just plain silly, but I suspect that the atmospheric boiler will go the way of the dinosaur in the near future anyway.

I guess I don't understand your comment. First you condemn me for condemning the use of non barrier tube, and in the same sentence say you would never use it any way. So what's your beef? You got stock in Wirsbonor or something?

No need to respond...

ME

Home Depot Employee

Thats good,
I can also show you dozens of failed in-floor copper applications from the 50-60's that failed due to the sulfites in the ground/concrete that ate through the pipe.

Unknown

Hey, I prefer future flexibility in my systems. That's why I don't use it. I have no beef with calling it best practice to use oxygen barrier tube.

There is a damn big step from that to forcing everyone else to design the way I do though, and while I salute codes and what they do for people, this is frankly ridiculous code to fix a totally different problem: unqualified installers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with non-barrier pipe on a non-ferrous system that doesn't need glycol. Even if it needs glycol, if it's low temp it's still fine.

While that may not be COMMON, there are perfectly viable and perfectly effective designs that use it. Making those systems illegal because some other person who doesn't understand the equipment they are supposed to be trained to use is JUST as silly as the statement I made about conventional boilers and venting.

I'm no "small government" republican and I'm not anti-code. This is the wrong tree though, McGruff. How about addressing educational standards with licensing instead of the blunt hammer of the code?

Rod Kotiga

Well put Rob. Bravo

Rod

[Deleted User]

WIth all due respect Rob...

and I respect you enough to send you design work and will continue to do so, but, and this is a BIG but, you don't see first hand, the devestation caused by non barrier tube. People like myself and Heatmiester see this crap on a daily basis, and are generally the bearers of bad news to the consumer. "I'm sorry, but your 7 year old system will need to be completely replaced, and oh by the way, its going to cost a lot more than most because your installer used an inferior product."

I agree, we need to do a better job of controlling the installers, AND designers (wholesalers). But that's not going to happen in our life time. Unless Van Couver decides to take over the U.S.... So, in my estimation, the best way to control the situation is to take the possibility (non barrier tube in closed loop heating applications) away from the installers. The tube manufacturers have nothing to lose, in fact they will make more money by selling a superior product.

And that is my professional opinion.

ME