CO Deaths & Lawsuit

gasfolk

This new CO-detecting equipment will become the standard of medical care. This means diagnosis of CO-related illness is about to double, adding 11,000 previously unidentified cases to the 15,000 cases diagnosed annually nationwide.

Since non-lethal CO exposure can damage brain and heart, better diagnosis of CO exposure is not likely (by itself) to reduce injury claims. Perhaps the number of lawsuits will decline if somehow we can refocus on collective, preemptive action to eliminate sources of CO before exposures ever occur. But how?

Advances in medical technology often change the perception of a disease, and for Carbon Monoxide poisoning, it appears that change is here. Let's hope everyone in the trades and industries involved in combustion appliances is ready for it.

gf

John_108

This happened around two years ago. Had a pretty good size thread on here. Looks like they are going after everybody.

http://wbal.com/stories/templates/news.aspx?articleid=2266&zoneid=3

Steamhead (in transit)

Surprised

they didn't name the ambulance service that didn't check the room they were in, or the paramedics and doctors who misdiagnosed the symptoms. Guess someone hushed that up pretty well..... welcome to Maryland. Plenty of blame to go around, but they only sue the heating guys.

Here's the link to the original thread:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=256705&_#Message256705

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gasfolk

Thanks, I had forgotte that interesting thread...

Yes, someone will pay, after several years, when The LAW works it through, but because the search for Justice is different from a search for the Truth, even years from now we may learn very little from whoever finally loses in a court of lawyers.

What is appealing about that thread and The Wall is the way most PROs here avoid the tiresome "blame game" and instead examine and learn from these cases while they are fresh. Commenting on these articles must be a repetitive chore for PROs (like Mark Hunt, Bob Harper, ME, etc.), but it is always reassuring when you bring the threads back to an action plan--what can readers of The Wall do to make these stories less likely to happen again.

If social workers, doctors, paramedics, firemen frequent The Wall, then it's certainly worth debating their responsibilities. And some amount of defensive venting is totally understandable. At the same time, with The Wall's focus on heating and hydronics, it is always impressive (to this reader) to see PROs encourage a stand on safety issues based solely on a sense of personal ethics, regardless of the finger pointing our litigious society increasingly encourages. So thanks again.

Now, can someone recommend a portable CO detector to keep my family safe the next time we travel to a hotel or even a friend's house?

gf

Bob Harper

GF, why not just take a CO Experts or NCI along? Best protection available as both are unlisted low level monitors and very reliable.

Man, it hurts not to be able to get all the facts in such cases. This would better prepare us who teach to instruct our students in the actualy pathways to trouble more than just the general advice of playing by the rules. The rules are a joke and still get people killed. It is frustrating to come behind installations that just passed inspection, either by a code official or 3rd party. We are seeing a rise in "certifications" of HVAC systems and chimneys. This is ridiculous because I'm not a recognized testing lab and the installation was done in a home--not in a lab to the ANSI or UL listing. Anyone signing these forms is insane. For instance, I will perform a Level II inspection of a chimney or venting system but refuse to sign the township's cert. form. A level II is the industry std. for chimney inspection as found in Chapter 14 of NFPA 211. It is good they are starting to require inspections prior to issuing U&Os but still there is no performance testing such as combustion analysis required. We still have much work to do.

Bob

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

I spoke

with an investigator who surveyed the site. From what I was told, two out of those named in the suit will be nailed to the wall. The cause was blatantly obvious.

gasfolk

Thanks, Bob...

You may be aware that since recent CO-related deaths in Rhode Island, the state now requires every Emergency Room to have carbon monoxide screening equipment.
www.health.ri.gov/media/080118a.php

Also, research in RI's busiest ER has shown that screening every ER patient for CO poisoning is possible and picks up unsuspected CO exposures, especially during heating season.
www.lifespan.org/news/2008/02/13/routine-screenings-uncover-hidden-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

Though the medical community is trying to do better, more can surely be done. It is a sobering thought that even these advances would not have saved the Providence family of three who recently, quietly died in their sleep.

Always glad to read your posts.

Thanks again,

gf

Bob Harper

Thanks for the links and kind words gf.

It is interesting to note that one third of those 11 patients screened for COHb using pulse CO-oximetry were bad enough for hyperbaric oxygen therapy. These were patients where CO was not suspected! Now, how are these followed up? The fire marshal needs a program where anyone diagnosed with COHb gets an immediate response to the home by fire and EMS to make sure no one else there is exposed then a qualified contractor inspect and test to locate the source. Notice I didn't say Fire Dept. do the testing and inspection.

I think you will see this equipment popping up on every ambulance soon the way you now see AEDs everywhere. Boy, those guys are making a killing. I know I wish I had this equipment back when I was a paramedic. The medics should wear personal CO alarms and carry CO analyzers. A few depts. carry 4 in 1 analyzers.

I will be meeting with some friends in the hearth industry Weds. from New England including Rhodies and will discuss this with them. I appreciate the heads up.

Bob

Ken D.

CO

It is a crime that the facts are kept hushed up and us in the trenches can't learn from it. All you get is second hand info and who knows what is accurate?

Mark Hunt_4

Good points


With increased screening and detection, the number of CO poisoning incidents will definitely increase. My hope is that this will finally prove just how serious this issue really is and motivate them to get the proper training to help reduce the number of people poisoned each year.

I posted this a few years ago but now may be a good time to repeat it. The lawyers are coming. I promise you that you do not have an insurance policy big enough to cover a lawsuit where a death is involved or a person or persons suffer debilitating injury from CO poisoning from a piece of equipment that you installed or serviced.

It won't be long before we see the insurance companies cranking up the premiums for P&H companies.

I know a bit about this specific case and I agree with Dave Yates. I don't want to say anymore on the subject but when the facts come out.....well just wait and see.

I am encouraged to see so many others bringing this issue up. I can think of nothing more honorable than keeping others safe.

Mark H

Tombig_4

Is there a good reason

a CO monitoring device shouldn't be in every mechanical room containing combustion equipment? In certain applications (relative location of the mechanical room, type of appliance), why not interlock the appliance(s) through the monitoring device?

Jim Davis_3

The amount of CO calls in Massachusetts went up 93% once CO alarms that go off at 70ppm became law. In Illinois they went up 92%. CO poisonings start as low as 15ppm and definitely by 30ppm. If EMS & Hospitals start using the Rad-57 Pulse CO Oximeter I got a feeling CO incidents are going to be out the roof.

Remember in 1994 when Vitas Gueralitas was killed by CO? A contractor that had just worked on the equipment was charged with negligent homicide. But because one could find anything wrong with the heater that killed him the charges were dropped!!!

Then two kids were killed in Minnesota after a homeowner sold his house to an unsuspecting couple after he was notified in writing his furnace was dangerous. He was charged with 2 counts of man slaughter. However a witness for the defense prove on a blackboard in the courtroom that you cannot be killed by an appliance in a house??? Wow!!!

Then what about the maintenance people in Massachusetts that worked on a boiler, it exploded enough to disconnect the flue and filled the building with CO and killed someone. They were not charged because they testified that they didn't know what they were doing!!! Didn't know a projectile was going to come out the end of that barrel when I put my finger on the do-hickey and hurt someone.

Alarms are not the solution but instead the back up after everyone does their job correctly. Unfortunately there are no laws or codes that require any work be tested or verified to be safe. The laws that are on the books are 99.99% written by those that have never worked in the field. In the year 2008 it is still voluntary whether we want to do our job correctly. Unfortunately to do your job safe you have to go against the rules by doing things that actually work.

eluv8

Personal Responsibility

I was just on a job yesterday on a boiler call, the boiler was so plugged up with soot it couldnt fire anymore. Contractor was blaming the boiler and wanted it yanked as this is the second time it had sooted up. Upon inspection the flue was run horizontally for over 30 ft and only turned up to go through the roof approx 20 ft. Yet it was the boilers fault. The contractor bypassed the high limits and safety devices on the boiler so that it would stay lit. We didnt get the call until that didnt work anymore. Thank goodness the boiler was in an issolated mechanical room from the main house and nobody got hurt but things could have been much worse.

gasfolk

Like Canaries In A Coal Mine?

Hi Jim,

With universal ER testing on the way, could plaintiff's attorneys argue that any code allowing installation or service of combustion equipment without requiring combustion analysis is akin to treating customers like canaries in a coal mine? (England did away with canaries twenty years ago.) And will customers appreciate learning of CO from an ER visit? http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/30/newsid_2547000/2547587.stm

If codes change to require testing for CO, will that help to notify and prepare people from the trades and industries who do not frequent The Wall and the internet? Will that be enough? And who can bring this to the attention of the appropriate AHJ?

Thanks,

gf

Jim Davis_3

Actually many AHJ have been made aware of this situation from this website and others and several publications. They seem to want to continue with a Wait and See attitude. What erks me is how they actually try to prevent us from testing. "Your not allowed to drill holes in flues to test!!!" I have an actual letter from what would be considered an upper HVAC industry hierarchy group that states at this time they do not condone the upgrade of safety of equipment in the field. Obviously many think codes cover all safety issues now without testing when in fact they cover very little. But then what you don't know can't hurt you!!

Frustrating, frustrating, frustrating!!!!

Tekkie

Another angle

There was a recent death in Allentown/Bethlehem, PA at an motel. Contractor made ducts/chutes and funneled the co into a room. I posted a link here before.

Tekkie

Fire reponse to CO

When I was a fire co officer I got investigation calls (seemed to always be in the middle of night) for CO. Had to grab the meter and scba off the truck and respond. We would get the call from the hospital or ems. PD & us on the cold nights. But then again we are SERVICE organizations...

John R. Hall

Inspections? We don't need no stinkin' inspections!

When was the last time a DIYer, HO, or just plan hack called for an inspection on their own install job. As long as these brain surgeons are on the loose people are going to die. Charge these idiots with the crimes!

Jim Davis_3

Just talked to a homeowner yesterday in Connecticut and that had a reoccurring CO problem and his fire department told him to move his alarm closer to the floor and it would pick up CO better.

Article today from Ohio states that 9ppm to 12 ppm are normal in our house from appliances according to fire department.

Article yesterday from Massachusetts stated that 15ppm is normal and CO Alarms go off at 35ppm according to fire department.

Firemen are some of the bravest people we will ever know, but it sure would be nice if they would get just a little education on CO if they are going to be the 1st responders.

Larry (from OSHA)

Jim

Could you provide links for the Ohio and Mass articles you mention?

Informed vs. uninformed fire officials will certainly vary across the nation. My experience in Minnesota has been reassuring that firefighters are well trained in many aspects of CO. Are they perfect? No, not many folks are, so there is always room for improvement.

As far as the comment that CO alarms go off at 35 ppm, mine does and I believe firefighters personal alarms also do at that level. Perhaps that statement was from a different perspective, but I'm just guessing without seeing the article.

Do you travel to the Midwest for training seminars?

Larry

gasfolk

Good Question...

Hi John,

Some states require installation of CO alarms when a house is sold, but should they also recommend (or require) actual combustion checks? Besides inspection at the time of sale, is there another practical approach for detecting potentially dangerous work by amateurs who skirt permits and inspections?

With FDA-approved technology to measure CO in hand, can the code authorities offer a good reason not to use it? Since that technology appears poised for widespread clinical application, it seemed worthwhile to consider whether the implications of this new use might influence AHJ decisions.

Thanks,

gf

Jim Davis_3

Ruth Chris Steakhouse Law Suit - $64 million

Wow!! Less than a month after the incident. Maryland's law says you can't sue your employer???

Crack in the boiler's heat exchanger that normally traps toxic gases caused CO to leak into building. What about the flood from the water???

I was just reading a story that is about a month old and it was talking about keeping your carbon monoxide vent clear so it could all vent. But according to the story above you have to make sure it doesn't leak out of the CO trap.

Tekkie

An idea for you

Why don't you offer to instruct the companies on a local, county or state level? Training all the time and it would be a new subject that could possibly be blended into their fire prevention program. Maybe donate some detectors to the fire co to give away? The way expenses are in firefighting it is a battle to allocate money for gas detectors and the like. I know when I first started 40 years ago co wasn't even mentioned.

Jim Davis_3

Fireman training

Have attempted to do this many times over the years. Just offered a free seminar at our facility in Cleveland. Made an special CO Manual for Fire Departments and sent out mailers to about 50 local departments. Only three showed up.

Most said they were too busy.

12 years ago I was working with the Energy Department of North Carolina and we offered a free CO seminar for all of Wake County. They had a cookout and then the meeting was to follow. I was pleasantly please to see over 120 fireman show up. Unfortunately they were only there for the cookout. When the meeting started only 10 remained.

Over the years I have actually trained about a dozen fire departments that really wanted to learn the whole story and some actually spent training dollars for the training.

I use to call on fire departments and show them test equipment that was available and even the Bacharach Breathalizer when it came out and then gave them a short awareness class. I always tested every fireman at the meetings. Once a fireman tested positive for CO and wasn't concerned. Even after I told him his whole family might be in jeopardy he was not concerned. Too many times I was told their job is to pick people up and take them to the hospital and let the hospital determine the cause of illness. I have offered my sons fire department free training over and over and they weren't interested.

When it comes to responding to accidents, fires and other emergencies, fireman are outstanding!!! When it comes to CO the majority come up short. I could spend weeks writing about my personal experiences coast to coast.

My best efforts will have to remain trying to train HVAC contractors and try to prevent as many CO incidents as possible so fire departments don't have to be involved.

radioconnection_2

John, you are kidding right?? I am homeowner, and I installed my own boiler. A Biasi B10-4 with a full ODR using a Temkmar 260. I included a thermic bypass valve for boiler protection. I certainly pulled the permits and had it inspected, and tuned up by a licensed burner technician. Not all DIY or homeowners are "hacks." My only problem will be finding someone qualified to service it. My oil company tech had never seen a Tiger Loop or a Tekmar ODR before.

Peter

CC.Rob_4

HO call

I know of several DIY boiler jobs that had the appropriate AHJ involved for permitting and inspection. (Not my particular AHJ, which is an important distinction for what follows below.)

Years ago, when I was young and foolish, I let a hack install a new boiler in my home. There was no inspection, so I called the AHJ. He signed off. I later discovered through research and questions here on the Wall and elsewhere that the AHJ had failed to discern at least two fundamental code violations, including the spec for combustion air which led to a periodic triggering of my basement CO detector. Let's just say that my faith in the authoritativeness of the AHJ system was eroded.

gasfolk

A Good Reason Against Combustion Analysis?

IF production of CO implies incomplete combustion and wasted energy,

AND IF CO poisoning requires BOTH incomplete combustion AND poor venting,

THEN wouldn't combustion analysis detect opportunities BOTH to lower risk of CO poisoning AND to improve energy efficiency regardless of venting?

If the above facts are true, can anyone offer a good argument against combustion testing OR a rational reason the code authorities might resist it? Is it politics, and are the rank and file against it?

Is CO testing equipment just too expensive? Is the equipment too complicated for folks to learn and master? Does testing take too long? Is the Air/Fuel ratio of some (or most) combustion devices not adjustable? Once adjusted, does equipment fall out of adjustment?

Thanks,

gf

[Edited for clarity.]

jp_2

I sadly agree

I would not rely on the inspector for my safety.

John R. Hall

Peter

You are the exception -- not the rule. More power to you my friend.

Steamhead (in transit)

But

we always did it that way.......

it's not our job........

it's way too expensive.....

Even when people have died from this, YOU STILL CAN'T FIX STUPIDITY!!!!!

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gasfolk

Hi Steamhead,

I am very interested in your thoughts (and anyone else's comments) on what might be included in model legislation to address this entire issue. You know the problems and the possibilities better than outsiders. What and how should it be done? If code authorities can't or won't act, would you trust and accept a legislated remedy?

Thanks,

gf

gasfolk

Hi Steamhead,

I am very interested in your thoughts (and anyone else's) on what might be included in model legislation to address this entire issue. You know the problems and the possibilities better than outsiders. What and how should it be done? If code authorities can't or won't act, would you trust and accept a legislated remedy?

Thanks,

gf

Jim Davis_3

Codes or legislation is a Catch 22. Codes are mostly written by non-field experienced people that have very little practical knowledge how things work when exposed to environments that are unpredictable. Codes are written for fixed conditions not variable. Seems like each new code is worse than the last.

Legislation becomes a problem because everyone has a government expert that is smarter than the people in the field. These are the people that use to write the codes and find out they can get paid high consulting fees for their experience of writing rules and codes based on their lack of experience.

I just wish we allowed to adhere to the part of the Code that states it is up to the individual to make the necessary design changes in the field to make systems perform properly. It is in the Code and yet not allowed by the Code Officials.

gasfolk

CO Production

Hi Jim,

Trying to understand your experience.

Are you saying that in addition to CO production with rich air/fuel ratios, you have measured significant CO production with lean air/fuel ratios and cooler combustion temps? Do you have data or can you recommend a reference for further reading? (Cannot find supporting links on Google.)

Thanks,

gf

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

Case in point

the original case mentioned in this thread. I was told that the installation was inspected - and passed - in spite of obvious issues that should have been flagged. Now the town's inspector gets a free pass on any liability? If true, that's just plain wrong. The one individual whose job includes safeguarding the end users by judging an installation fit-for-use can't have a free pass on missing the boat or there will never be any incentive to do the job correctly.

Steamhead (in transit)

Jim's right

too much excess air can chill the flame to the point where combustion is no longer complete, thus generating CO. Every recent book on combustion I've read makes this same point, as do many older ones.

Regarding legislation, that's a can of worms. Since govermnents are largely staffed by people who were not chosen for intelligence or work ethic, if the right stuff actually gets into the Code it probably won't be enforced.

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gasfolk

Can you point me to a recent book or books so I can read more?

Thanks,

gf

Steamhead (in transit)

Might try this

for oil:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-165

For gas, e-mail Tim McElwain at gastc@cox.net and get his catalog. Tim operates Gas Appliance Training and Consulting in Warren, RI. and IMHO is the best in the business. Even if you're not in the business I'm sure he has something for you.

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