Upside down expansion tank ( Ron Jr. )

Bruce Stevens_2

Yes there was pressure in that tank but was the bladder stil in tack or was it acting as a compression tank instead of an expansion tank? The tank location could have been keeping air in it even though the bladder died.

bill_97

For the skeptics

who think the orientation of a bladder type tank will affect longevity .......

There was still pressure in this upside down tank . The stamped date code is older than me by 5 years . The properly installed domestic expansion tank didn't fare as well . Date code of 2001 and it was full o' water .

bill_97

We installed a Burnham V84

and a stone lined indirect heater .

R Mannino

All that room.

What no shoehorn today?

Ron

gerry gill

I'm with you on that one..

i don't think it matters at all on a bladder style tank.

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Rich_46

was the inlet rusted so solid that the air couldn't get out. i am always wondering < is there a wrong way? >

DanHolohan

As it was explained to me,

and this was from a guy from Amtrol. Bladder tanks lose about 1 psi air pressure each year due to osmosis. The air moves through the rubber bladder and enters the water, in much the same way as air will move through unprotected radiant tubing. The movement is increased by water tempertature - the higher the temperature, the faster the air will move through the bladder. When the tank is installed with the water inlet at the bottom, the hot water in the system moves more easily into the tank due to gravity circulation. This makes the water in the tank hotter, and the air will move across the badder faster as a result.

All of this is also why they give you a means by which you can reinflate the tank with a compressor or bicycle pump.

Derheatmeister

Talking about Longevity .In Germany they use a Innert Gas to charge the Bladder!

I think it is Nitrogen. Maybe it makes it last longer? . At least i do not remember Changing as many tanks over there as over here. But also when ever i check tank changes they are over pressured, so that the diaframe is rubbing against the inlet which causes it to fail.

DanHolohan

Amtrol

used to use nitrogen. They found it moved just as easily across the bladder. In fact, they told me that the more effective the air separator, the faster the nitrogen (or just plain air) moves. Nature always looks for balance.

Again, this is why there's a Schrader valve on these tanks. You have to check the pressure as part of a service call, but you have to first remove the water pressure from the tank to get an accurate reading on the air pressure.

[Deleted User]

deleted

bill_97

I don't think so

2 reasons .

If the tank broke and became a compression tank of sorts , it would have filled with water at some time and kicked off the relief valve .

And there was no telltale " water sloshing " sound in the tank . Where water gets on the other side of the diaphragm .

I'll check tomorrow to see if it was intact .

Rich_46

makes it easier when installer gives you a ball valve and drain down point upstream of the tank

bill_97

Doubt it

I didn't see any rust in the boiler water , so it's a safe bet the tank inlet was fine . Besides , if it was rusted solid we woulda seen high pressure problems .

bill_97

The room looks pretty big

but there was about 3 feet from the front of the units to the inside wall . We were tripping over each other most of the day .

[Deleted User]

according to many people

over the years that i've asked that question of, it's neither here-nor-there, but yet, in the ibr guide, it def states on page 3-16; "ALWAYS mount the tank with it's system tapping UP - never on it's side or upside down. This ensures the diaphragm will always be wet, avoiding cracking due to drying out of the elastomer."

bill_97

You know what ?

I did not see a schrader valve on that tank . I know it's not in the traditional spot - opposite the threaded connection . The tank is on my truck right now but I'm too beat to check . I'll see where the valve is tomorrow and put a gauge on it . One thing I do know is it was never charged up by us . Our policy is to change it if the charge is too low and the tank is semi-old .

Toddid Goldsmith's

UPSIDE DOWN EXPANSION TANKS

I'VE SEEN MANY BLADDERED EXPANSION TANKS WHERE THE BLADDER HAS GOTTEN STUCK TO THE INSIDE OF THE TANK. TAKE THE PRESSURE FO THE SYSTEM, AN THE TANK PRESSURE IS FINE,BUT WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY EXPANSION.REMOVE THE AIR, PRESSURIZE THE SYSTEM, AND THE BLADDER WILL RLEASE FROM THE TANK. TAKE THE PRESSURE OFTHE SYSTEM, REPLACE THE SCHRADER VALVE CORE, RECHARGE THE TANK. SEEN A LOT OF VALVE CORES THAT LEAK

Darrell

Never had much luck pumping flat tanks back up to design pressure...the incidence of callbacks was way too high so I quit doing it. If it is flat, I change it out.

I s'pose a guy could take the time to pump it up and watch it for awhile and check the schrader valve and see if it holds and then if it does leave it in the system. But, then the annual check starts to take hours...too expensive...

I haven't noticed any higher incidence of failure for one orientation over another...I appreciate the installers who place the tank where it can be serviced or removed.

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Derheatmeister

Dan, was there not an Airless expansion tank out there ?

Kinda like and shock absorber on a car!

bob eck

nice installation on the v8 and indirect. I work for EPSCO Allentown PA. PLBG & HTG wholesaler and we sell burnham I noticed you pumpes away with circulators on each zone. have you ever used the grundfos superbrute circulators ups1558fc with the check valve built in and with three speeds. when pumping away and using the superbrute circulator there is no need to use extra flow control valves saving time and money on each zone. they also come with a 3 year warranty. I sell a lot to my heating contractors and they love them. we also sell them the grundfos comfort pump domestic hot water recirculation pumps so the home owner does not have to wait for hot water at their faucets saving them time and thousands and thousands of gallons of water year after year. check out the grundfos comfort pumps at www.waitnot.com this system is easy to install and does not require a return line to be run back to the indirect water heater or any other type water heater. great add on sale and you can you can grow your business with this product. any questions you can email me direct at eckrobert@rcn.com in a year with a tough economy I am trying to give my contractors as many ways to grow their businees as possiable. good luck with your business in the future.

DanHolohan

Not that I know of.

TK03

It lasted maybe due to the size. Less movement on the bladder with a tank so large. Do you have cast iron radiation.The idea of being up I am up in the air. If there are automatic air vents on the system will any air up against the bladder move out as does a non-bladder type tank. The air will find air vents and be eliminated.

bill_97

Derheatmeister might be right

There was NO Schrader stem on this tank . Just a punchout where the stem usually is . I stuck a piece of 1/4 inch copper down the threaded side and it hit somethin right after the threads . Something solid which didn't budge .

I'm guessing it works off a spring maybe ? A rubber transition on the sides of the tank to a steel baffle that holds the spring on the air side ?

bill_97

Hi Robert

Thanks for the compliment . We were using another brand circ with internal check for a few years . The check is more prone to get hung up on any system gunk than a traditional weighted check . And it seems like these types of circs airlock very easy .

Another reason we switched back is to drain down a zone by opening the top of the flowcheck . Can't be done with a internal check .

[Deleted User]

Can't be done with a internal check

excellent point!

bob_46

Ron

please beat that cover off the bottom of the tank. We have to know what's under there. Regards bob

Darrell

1970 Amtrol

I was on a service call this afternoon on a 35 year old peerless that just won't quit. The original paper packet was still taped to the side of the jacket and inside I found the instructions for mounting the original Amtrol 110. The form is dated 1970, and Amtrol says that the tank doesn't have to be mounted vertically. 'Course it also says that the tank/filltrol can be placed anywhere in the system that is convienient.

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