Vapor system problem

RonWHC

are pre-set @ 100#. Don't know w/o a gage. The PGC 434 speced the 3.00 x 60 P/B nozzle, @ 300# hi fire, in the 484. Best to stay w/ it. The relatively short 60* nozzle pattern, w/ the higher pressure, compacts the flame & keeps it off the bare rear wall. Atomizes better too.

Firing the actual connected load works most times. Not always. Particularly if the boiler is way oversized. You still need to jump start that large mass of cast & the water inside. I start my tea kettle on high.

We still service six 84s. Most are now gas-oil. However, the Sun Ray burners on those boilers were some of the best Weil ever matched w/ their pieces. If you decide on a new burner, make sure everyone does their homework. The 84 might be an old geezer, but it was @ the cutting edge of pressure fired cast iron boilers.

BillinJersey

Vapor system problem

sure could use some help troubleshooting an (almost) no heat problem on my old vapor system. The layout is like the one at the top of page 237 in "lost art". 3 story, 7 unit apt bldg. with 36 rads with mepco 1e traps.(there are also some hoffman 17c and sarco "h" type traps mixed in)
I have been maintaining it for 12 years or so, but I'm just the landlord.When I bought the place, the system had been neglected for what seemed like ever. I looked like a heating god to the tenants when I simply replaced all traps and some of the hand valves, cleaned out the check valves near the boiler and took apart the return trap and the air eliminator and "rebuilt" them(kind of like doing a valve job on a 327 chevy, but that's another story). Long story short, just by reading Dan's book, I had tenants that wanted to pay more rent, just from the peace and quiet of not hearing the water hammer anymore. Fast forward 12 years and now I've got trouble and I can't decide what to do next. I'm not a heating guy mind you, so most of the stuff in the book is beyond my understanding. I'm just a tinkerer that's been lucky so far, I guess.
For the past couple of weeks, things have gone downhill fast. Currently, I have the boiler running perfect, but the steam takes forever to get to the end of the mains. About 45 minutes or so, where it used to take maybe half that long. What most of the tenants get is a HOT feed pipe up to the hand valve, but barely any heating of the radiator itself. (I have also noticed that the main air vent on top of the air eliminator is hardly kicking out air like it used to while the boiler is making a fresh pot.) There is no water hammer anywhere: before, during or after the cycle. Since my knowledge is limited, and it's the dead of winter, I did only the following so far to avoid the risk of having to shut the system down because I got too ambitious and broke something vital.
First, I replaced the 2 end of main traps (mepco 1e)......no change
Then, I figured since it had been about 5 years since I last did it, I replaced (almost)all of the traps. (Sheesh, talk about flapping your wallet in the wind)............... no change
Next, I special ordered the rebuild kits for the hoffman and sarco traps ( there are only 8 of the non-mepco traps around the building)(more wallet flapping, 400.00 or so just for these)and now have my fingers crossed that the problem is actually one of non-mepco traps, and I will have again conquered the problem (or in my case, lucked out) and can go back to my 9-5 job.The 8 traps come in tomorrow Feb.13 (by air) and I'll replace them, but my gut tells me I've got some other problem(s). FINALLY: The questions!:
1. If the last 8 traps don't help, how would I go about troubleshooting the system to find the real problem?
2. Does it help if I tell you that the problem happens even on the first radiator, which is located about 5 feet down the 4" steam main and 3 feet up, almost directly above the boiler? I may be easy to impress, but I'm astounded by the nerve of that rad with the brand new trap that has a boiling hot feed pipe and a return pipe cold enough to stick my tongue to if I got up on a ladder and tried it.(which I might actually try to do......right before I declare bankruptcy and then commit suicide!)
3. If you were me, would you just hire a professional, who, despite talking a good game about "knowing steam" could actually be a slug in Dan Holohan clothing?
Thanks for listening! I'm off to visit my tenants bearing space heaters under both arms.(Feb. 12 3:00 pm). I'll have my email on the jobsite so please send comments, suggestions................. (and money) Bill in Jersey

Unknown

Air

Hi Bill, Methinks that you have a problem getting air out of the returns, for some reason. From your description, I'll bet that the return main is hot, right near the return trap, and is closing either traps or the vent itself.

While you troubleshoot, remove the main vent entirely, so that the air (and/or steam) in the returns can escape. This will help troubleshoot by moving things out fast, which will help pinpoint any hot spots.

Finding the scource of any hot spots in the return would be the first step in eliminating trap problems.

Check out the second part of this article.

Noel

nicholas bonham-carter

vapor system problems

has your steam pressure changed due to a clogged pigtail--seems to me that one other vapor system had that problem--nbc

Unknown

Wow!

Good answer!

If the water backs up into that Alternating Receiver due to pressure, it PRESSURIZES the return against everything this side of the check valves, and squirts a little water back into the boiler. Then it alternates back to normal open returns, and the vent will open only if it isn't hot.

It'll be hot.

The pressure has no intention of letting the water back in, as it isn't a coal fire, it's raging. The alternating reciever alternates again. It closes the check valves with steam pressure from the top at the high return (and the bottom return below the Alt. Rec.) and pushes another squirt into the boiler (through the third check valve). It's fighting a loosing battle.

MEANWHILE, the main vent keeps getting a puff of steam squirtied at it, every alternation. It's shut.

You would have no way to vent the radiators. They'd be cold. The vent won't open.

Get a 10' piece of clear hose, 1/2" to 3/4", and put a hose adapter on it. Screw it on the boiler drain and open the drain a bit to fill the hose. Dump it till it runs a little clearer. With it still open, hold the end up high and check the water level in the hose. Compare it to the boiler water level. Compare it to the Alternating Receiver with the boiler running.

If the water in the hose rises high enough, compared to the Alt. Rec., to float the float mechanism inside, and it works, your air vent will be shut off, pretty much until the water goes back down.

If it does rise that high, get a chair to sit in. Hang up the open hose next to the old cast iron ham, and sit by the burner switch. Run her till the water gets to the bottom of the ham, and stop her till the water drops a few inches. Then fire her again till it rises back to the same spot. It'll drop fast, but rise slower. Do this for half an hour or so, and go check the main air vent. You should be able to keep it cold and venting, and the radiation will heat.

Leave it running and go up and check the building for hot radiation at the ends of the risers and mains. If it's heating, give the man the prize. He nailed it.

Of course, it could be something else. It's steam.....

Noel

Steamhead (in transit)

There's always the possibility

that the boiler has developed a hole above the waterline, and the steam is going up the chimney rather than into the system.

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Jim Bennett

Also....

traps can be rebuilt, no need to replace. Look up Tunstall or Barnes & Jones for repair kits.

Jim

Mad Dog!!!!!!!!

I did a consult a few years back..........................

where the gas company regulator crapped out...cutting btus in half. Look at everything. Thanks for that lead Noel...hows the ol' homestead comin? Mad Dog

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Unknown

Coming along.

I've done all of the steam work on the main floor, now. I've put in a pair of #2 vents, all copper and shiney. When you start with a 3' aluminum (which I still have), a 3/4" black bushing comes right out. I'm still collecting up pipe to repipe the boiler header. The radiators pant on the main that get's all of the water. It's cold in the kitchen. I've mostly insulated everything.

I'm going through the burner a bit at a time. I'ts running clean, and the Peerless has .02" of draft loss through it, so I'm just doing the steam side controls. I put a spin-on oil filter on it and put my vacuum gauge in that. 0 vacuum, so the filters both are clean. Year old Granby tank, indoors. I finally got my 67 LWCO gaskets from Joe, at Granite Group (thanks, Kevin). He's getting me a Carlin oil valve, too. I already bought a 7184U, because my 8184 buzzes for a bunch of seconds before it pulls in. Old T87 stat, but I like those on 1 pipe steam.

My son and I hung a bunch of new joists, to fix a split one, and beef up the floor for my old kitchen wood range. It's a 1903 Glenwood E. I have to buy a pad for under it and buy an all fuel chimney and put it up. Then I can go get it and put it in. Oil's expensive, and I already have a 14 acre woodlot. It only makes sense. The stove was my grandfather's. He was a 1901, but the stove outlasted him. It's in HIS great grandson's family room, now. They don't build them like they used to. My house is a 1710. Heck, the 1 pipe steam system is NEW!!!

Yesterday, a kitchen cabinet fell off the wall. The top let go (1/4" back, the screws pulled through.) it emptied itself on Lisa, then it fell forward.... Neat.

Now I know why my son, the builder, walks around my house shaking his head, mumbling "homeowners......"

It's good to have a builder in the family. Roofs and crawl spaces aren't as fun anymore.

Noel

BillinJersey

vapor system problems (continue)

Thanks all for your responses! No, the last 8 traps did not do the trick. So, I have bigger fish to fry, so to speak. The tenants are using space heaters, and the weather is milder right now, so I've got some time to think. I've got plenty to check and do, especially after reading Noel's article(thanks!)but there is something bugging me right now. I've removed the air check from the top of the Easter ham (not the larger,Christmas ham (return trap))but I'm still getting almost no air from it as the system fires up and sends steam down to the end of the mains. This is a sealed system, right? The only place start up air should be escaping is in the boiler room. So the start up air is pressurizing the returns (I assume), but how do I determine WHERE the path of the air (from the end of main trap(s) to the air eliminator in the boiler room)is being broken or blocked? Also, the 4" mains heat up at the rate of 2-3 feet per minute as the steam makes it's way to the other side of the basement. I can't say I've paid much attention over the past 12 years since buying the place, but it seems slower than before. Is there an average or rule of thumb for this? Lastly, is there a way I can post photos of the system to this forum?
Thanks again all!

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, either the air trap

(Easter ham) is blocked for some reason, or whatever vents the mains isn't working (could be crossover traps) or the boiler has a hole in it.

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Unknown

Is the boiler dirty? Underfired?

BillinJersey

I guess it's possible that the valve inside the air eliminator (Easter ham) has failed in such a way that the air check on top isn't getting enough air to properly vent, but some air does come out, but nothing like the past. After I did surgery on that ham 12 years ago, I made sure to always wrap something around the air check so when I went in the boiler room I would notice it. Fine strips of mylar worked best, but now I've got something else taped on that should be moving but isn't. It's sure gonna be fun taking that ham apart now, since the fire insector did an inspection a few years back and made me fire-code sheetrock the entire boiler room ceiling, which puts the top of the ham at about one half inch below the sheetrock (I even had to box out the space between two ceiling joists just for the air vent!).Fun,fun,fun!
Are the crossover traps you mention the ones at the end of the mains? I just replaced them(they're the same as most of the rads use) the other day, and they are currently behaving as follows:Boiler fires up/ steam comes along both sides of basement outside walls in 4" mains at about 2-3 feet per min (too slow?)/steam gets to end of mains at about the same time, but doesn't go up to end of main traps right away/ instead, for about 5 mins, it heats up the vertical sections of the dry return pipes(from top of wall to almost down to the floor)before it goes up that last foot or so up to the e.o.m. traps/ traps soon open, but only the 6" nipples coming out of both traps get hot(not the dry returns themselves)/ boiler continues to run for approx 10 more minutes, during which time the wet return gets too hot to touch from ceiling down to floor and about 20 feet horizontally back towards boiler room/ the rest of wet return is progressivly cooler but warm for entire length/
Does any of the above help with your "hole in the (GULP!)boiler" comment?
Sorry about the wordiness, but I'm pretty panicky right about now.
Thanks, Bill

BillinJersey

Noel, Page 4 of your guide(thanks!) sez more than half an inch of dancing in the gauge glass is too much, so since I'm at 1-1.5 inches I guess it's dirty. Thing is, it's always danced that much, even when things were copasetic. I'm not trying to skate on skimming the boiler, but I never have! (First time for everything, I guess)
Also, could you please define "underfired".

BillinJersey

Sorry, I meant wet returns get hot down to floor.

Unknown

Dirty

Is it an oil boiler?, If it's oil, a dirty boiler (fireside, not the water) will send the heat up the chimney, rather than into the water. An oil boiler with a downfired nozzle will make this effect worse.

What is your flue temperature?

On oil or gas, you don't ever have to open those "hams" up. They serve no purpose. They were non-electric devices that deal with high pressure on a coal fire.

Your electric pressure control replaced them. In fact, making them work will sometimes stop a system from operating, with an electric pressure control dueling with them.

You could have ruled them out as a problem by now with a $10.00 piece of clear hose...

Are the RETURNS hot anyplace? How fast the mains heat don't tell us much about solving the problem, only that there IS a problem.

Without the air venting where you removed the main vent, something else is going on. It's almost time to stop theorizing, and open the system up and troubleshoot it.

What level does the water rise to in the returns? This tells the actual pressure.

When the vent is removed, how fast does the return get hot, and at what place on the return main? AS SOON AS THE RETURN BECOMES HOT SOMEPLACE, shut the boiler off. Follow the heated pipe back to the scource.

If, with the vent out, the return doesn't get hot and the water doesn't rise much, where is the heat going? Up the chimney as overheated exhaust from a dirty oil boiler? Up the chimney from a leaking boiler? Out a leaking pipe somewhere?

After doing these tests, where do the symptoms lead us further? Without the testing results, we're pretty much guessing. That's the same as giving up, as far as I can tell.

Noel

Adam_13

air out

Hi, just a homeowner here with a few thoughts. Seems like the air isn't getting out. A large system like that with a central vent should have a great rush of air leaving the vent trap every cycle. I doubt there are any trap problems sice you seem to be very diligent at trap maitenance. By the way, a good way to save money on traps is just to build yourself a trap tester in the boiler room. No sense in replacing 12 year old traps that still work. Anyway my thought is that it may in fact be a sag (or sags)in the return piping creating a water pocket that blocks air from escaping. Enough air may bulbble its way through the water to throw one off the trail. It is an older building, setttling problems and/or pipe hangers that have fallen out could easily put a water seal in a dry return. Construction/sheetrocking in the boiler room could also have disturbed pipe pitch. Also, tements just love to hang stuff from all those handy pipe things in the basement... If nothing else it might be worth while to pick up a long level and check out the pipe pitchs before doing anything drastic. Crud or a blockage in the wet returns by the ham could also flood the returns with water and block air removal even if there is little or no pressure on the boiler. A test here would be if you have access to a radiator not in an apartment. Take the guts out of the trap, run the boiler with a partner at the service switch. If the steam shoots to the radiator with the open trap you know you have an air out problem in the returns. Have you friend ready to shut off the boiler before you fill the place with steam though, and take care not to get burned or something. Love to see pictures though. Good Luck, -Adam

BillinJersey

more info as of 2/20

Ok, So while I wait for a new, steam knowledgeable, burner mechanic to call me back,(so I can get the flue temp, underfiring/overfiring and combustion questions answered), I have found time to do the following:
1.Skimmed the boiler for 4 hours according to the Weil Maclain/"Lost Art" composite instructions (wow, lot's of different schools of thought there). As mentioned in an earlier post, my sight glass dancing was always between one inch and inch and a quarter for the last 12 years. After skimming, which included a ph test (9.0) and the combination of the "Lobestael Method" and simple stovetop boiling,which produced no foaming and only a very slight trace of sediment, the surging/priming in the glass is now down to about 3/4 inch max. (although if you, like me, have plenty of extra time on your hands and want to hold your tape measure steady to the glass for say a full 3 minutes, you will see one or two "rouge waves" that will exceed an inch!)By the way, no chemicals have been added to the system since the water seems to have "passed muster".
2. Made a clear test hose (thanks Noel)and connected it to the drain petcock and fired her up. Glass started to surge within 10 minutes, but level in the hose barely did anything. After 15 mins, steam was heading down mains, hose showed slight(1/4 inch), very slow surging. 10 minutes later, same. After 1/2 hour(with steam reaching hand valves on first floor rads, but no hot returns anywhere in basement),test hose was still at same level as sight glass (for whatever reason, it actually measured about a half inch closer to the floor than the water in the glass(?). Unfortunatley, I wasn't able to hang out in the boiler room till the end of the cycle, which was still about 10 mins away by then, so I wasn't able to measure the test hose after the boiler shut down. I called one of the tenants a half hour later and asked him to shut the test hose off (cause it was giving me the willies to have the system "open" like that when I wasn't around) and he said the boiler was off and test hose level still roughly matched glass tube level.(I was not surprised)
3. worry a lot
Thanks all! I'll let you know what the burner guy sez.

Unknown

Boiler's not making enough steam

Find out the reason why, and you'll be onto something.

BillinJersey

While waiting for my regular burner tech to call me back about my lack of steam pressure, I've read a little about the nozzle specifications(interesting), which lead me to the following questions:
One:If Weil maclain lists a specific nozzle that should be used on my burner (1970's vintage Sun-Ray model PGC-484) (in my case they spec out a Hago: Solid cone/Type P/ with 60 degree spread) and I find out that my guy (or one of his "helpers") installed something else, should I ask him why?(Do different mechanics have pet brands and cones/spray angles that they interchange, or should I insist on what the factory wants?) Two: Forgive me, but how does the tech usally determine what GPH nozzle to install? Must the tech know this old system or is it always just a case of just putting in the same GPH as the last guy had in there, or can they fudge it?(the old nozzle was not left behind the last time he was there(which I was used to with the former tech), so I can't check it myself. Three: How is a GPH chosen initially for a vapor system when they first installed that burner? The plate on the front of the boiler sez 5.25 GPH, but I think I remember it being a 3 or 3.5 GPH nozzle that was used.(is the 5.25 a "max" and most systems are using nozzles 25-50% smaller?)
Sorry for having so many questions with so little base knowledge, but I'm just trying to be a more educated consumer when speaking with my local professional, along with trying to get my tenants back to the good old (warm)days! Thanks again! Bill

Unknown

They match it to the amount of radiation in the system.

That's the "square feet of steam" number.

Noel

RonWHC

The SunRay PGP

on the Weil 84 is lo-hi-off. Lo fire oil pressure is 150#. Hi fire pressure is 300#. That's how you get 5.25 GPH w/ a 3.00 nozzle. There should be a relay that delays lo fire 5 seconds & kicks in hi fire 15 seconds later by closing an oil bypass solenoid.

Many folks don't know - but the only way to properly clean the fireside of the 84 is to remove the burner & plate & brush the vertical flue passages from the chamber area. The top door only accesses the top of the the boiler & the damper.

The 84 came w/ a manometer to set the boiler damper pressure @ +.10" WC. There should be a positive pressure in the chamber. Not a negative draft.

BillinJersey

You may have hit on something Ron

Thanks for your reply. Great to know your're familiar with my exact setup. (weil Bl-484/pgc 434 burner)
What you mentioned about the 2 different cleaning accesses hit a nerve with me because of the following:
My mechanic (young guy with mostly residential experience, but he works on my smaller rental properties with never a problem)was called in to fix a small puddle of oil on floor under burner in November. He troubleshot the problem to blown seal in Sundstrand 2 stage pump.He spent a long time on the phone (Sid Harvey, etc.) trying to get a replacement or rebuild kit. Then announced "maybe it's time for a new burner since I can't find the parts". I told him to come back tomorrow and I'd find the part.(remember, I'm a landlord).Two hours later, I chose the cheaper of my 2 choices 1. the exact replacement now made by the company that bought Sundstrand (Suntec) 2. An equivalent rebuilt Sundstrand; Sheesh, talk about beating the bushes............(not the exact number, but a higher capacity H4 instead of an H3)So, my guy used the rebuilt, it worked.......but here's the BUT.....the next day the tenants started calling to complain that there was soot on their cars. LOTS of it. It took him 2 days to get back to fix it(since we had heat, he took his time). I never found out from him what caused the soot, but he did say he needed to clean the boiler and "re-adjust" it. Now I wonder,based on what you said, if the cleaning was complete and proper. Could the problem (not enough steam) be a result of leaving too much soot behind? It has been a pretty mild winter, so the way it ran after that my have been ok, but now it ain't cutting it. Also, how much of the info about the hi/lo stages,etc.that you were kind enough to share be beyond the understanding/reach of my residential guy? One last question, (I promise) do you recommend using only the specified nozzle for that burner? Thanks! Bill (feeling like I should be sending cash for you guys to suffer through these long posts)

Unknown

You're on the right track, now. The boiler seems sooted by your descriptions of the problem, above.

You need a guy that WILL get inside your boiler and clean it, before he tells you it's clean. I don't know if your guy is lazy and lying, or if he just doesn't know your boiler (and lying). Either way, same results.

Get the boiler clean, have it fired to the rate that matches the amount of radiation (plus the normal pick-up factor) and have it adjusted with combustion testing equipment.

When it's clean and running right, the water in the clear hose WILL climb, and you'll need (possibly) to adjust the vaporstat (pressure control) so that the burner shuts off just before your cast iron ham floods. That's the spot it will save you the most fuel.

When they built your system, they made sure the fire could be controlled well enough to not flood the ham (often).

Noel

BillinJersey

Thanks

I'll get on it. The boiler will be properly cleaned, even if I have to do it myself!

BillinJersey

Thanks for the follow-up, btw, did you say

that the new(rebuilt) pump may have been pre-set for 100#?
Wouldn't this mean that unless my guy checked (and raised) the pressure up..... it can't be putting out the 300# needed for high firing? (you probably would have already said that if it was correct, but at this point I need to double check the tips I'm getting to be sure of what I say to others). Thanks.

[Deleted User]

Yep.