Canadian 636 Normal?

Unknown

perhaps you`re on to something there?<BR><BR>Dave

Unknown

Does this look right?

These fittings can take nothing,, slightest movement and they shatter like glass, we all know who mandated this on my side.

Dave

Glen

Our winters -

have nothing to do with that right????? To date its the longest/coldest winter in recent history here in BC. I see at least one technical issue re the primer/solvent application though, eg. not enough of either. Regardless - the TSSA and its cohorts have made the code changes right across Canada.

Unknown

Agreed Glen,

I didn`t solvent these,, nonetheless should that effect the integrity of the fittings?
BTW- These were indoors.

Dave

Glen

Generally -

CPVC is reasonably robust and takes some punishment - ask your supplier as it is not unreasonable to have a few defective parts from time to time.

Unknown

Good call,

I`m just glad no-one perished,, wonder if the supplier would have stepped up to the plate then?

Dave

Brad White_185

I dunno, but

I had my condensing boiler condensate go into a PVC drywall bucket with marble chips set in a seldom-used service sink. After a couple of years, less actually, the plastic became as brittle as glass.

Before I used it, the plastic bucket was pliable (enough so to fit it into the sink and deform it for a moment to get it under the spigot). Flexible as they are when new, when I went to take it out on the pretext of dumping and replacing the marble chips, it shattered. I took it out in about 14 parts not counting the rocks.

I suspect but cannot confirm the acidity, but plastic is supposed to be the ideal acid resistor...

Brad White_185

It may be just a coincidence

but I have other buckets in the same basement (I use them to, ah, "organize" my tools and fittings. Bucket O'Wrenches anyone?)

Those in the tool and fitting business retain their flexibility. Not that they do yoga or anything, but the condensate-duty bucket did shavasana pretty well. You might even say it kicked itself

Unknown

Heard that,

perhaps it`s expansion of the vent piping? It vents outdoors (through coax kit), about 3' to the left of the unit. Too bad a "rubber type" coupling was`nt acceptable to help, otherwise I`ll have to make the kit "loose or sleeved" in the wall.

Dave

Brad White_185

Makes me want to check

the polypropylene venting on my Monitor MZ. What protrudes seems fine. The Viessmann material, that translucent stuff is incredibly flexible. The o-ring gasketing has to be a help but the material- if it goes, there is no recourse.

I wonder if there is a recall notice or some more than anecdotal information? Scary not just curious.

rich pickering

Are those 45's 636? The concentric isn't. (Unless Ipex finally came out with some.)

What did Ipex say about them. I KNOW their lawyers and insurer would be losing a lot of sleep if they saw those.

trevor pierce, London Boiler Service

was this on a boiler?

the pipe and fittings look to be PVC 636 which isnt rated for flue temperatures above 60c I think, never used the PVC 636! Actually, the fittings dont look to be aproved at all. I have found several boilers in London that were vented with PVC but have a flue gas limit that is set for 88c which means they need the CPVC 636 that is rated to 90c and is much thicker, grey in colour, orange cement, and way more expensive! I know of a few manufacturers that kind of glaze over the isue of vent material here, they are the ones selling shall we say economical boilers! if your in the busines of selling cheap you cant tell the contractors they need 3" CPVC 636 that costs $14 a foot with $20 elbows! Everyone one should watch for this and look at the installation date to see if the code was in effect when the unit was installed, if it was the unit is considered unsafe and must be repaired or infracted if vented with PVC 636 unless it has a flue gas limit below the temperature rating on the pipe! One manufacturer has just made reference to using the code in their manual but told the wholesalers PVC 636 is OK making the units seem economical! I find it insulting to know that this is what the manufacturer in question thinks about us, that we have such a low level of profesionalism, the shameful part is that I'm finding them!! Shame on us! Personaly I like the Viessmann vent kit, it is sealed well, improves efficiency by preheating the incoming air and offers double protection! They never offered a vent adaptor for 2 pipe venting until there was pipe aproved to be a vent, they make specific reference to the aproved materials and offer very precise vent tables! As contractors we are all that protects the customer from cheap equipement and potentially dangerous situations, when a customer selects one of us they are putting there trust and family into our hands!

Unknown

Ya know trevor,

the fittings ARE IPEX 636, and ARE APPROVED,, to be used on TT boilers,,, not a "cheap product" by any means.
While Viessmann is a good product also, some people cannot afford their pricing strategy.
Yes, installation dates are the thing to look for,, but is something like this better than ABS which is rampant?
Direct Energy(in bed with Enbridge in my opinion), are the worst offenders, but they seem to get away with anything in Ontario.
Do I feel badly about selling equipment that costs less(than Viessmann), but offers the same performance?,, not at all, tough to argue that point, and I try really hard not to!
Curiosity- Do you happen to have a copy of the CSA-B214-07 hydronic codebook? I wonder who`s gonna "police" that? TSSA?,,,give me a break!

BTW- Go easy on the exclamation points,, its right next to yelling! LOL!

Dave

Unknown

Dont worry Rich,

Canadian opinions here are never taken seriously,, its like we don`t exist!
I`ve learned that, so save your breath!

Dave

Doug_7

Which 636 Spec - PVC or CPVC ?

Trevor already said it. There are TWO approved grades of 636 flue pipe. Specify the correct 636 grade for your flue temperature conditions.

System 636 PVC is a Class IIA vent rated for 65 C. It is White in color.

System 636 CPVC is a Class IIB vent rated for 90 C. It is Grey in color.

IPEX 636 Specs are attached.

The fractured material is clearly white PVC. I see no orange 636 labels on the fractured PVC fittings and they look to have an pretty thin wall - are you sure these fractured fittings really 636 or are they irrigation pipe fittings ?

What flue temperature was this fractured flue pipe running at ?

Brad - Are you sure your drywall bucket is made from PVC ? Normally they are made from Polyethylene not from PVC or CPVC. Even then I am surprized - they ship concentrated hydrocloric acid in Polyethylene.

Doug

Unknown

Hey Doug,

Trevor said what?, didn`t think I had to fire-up my camera at 1:30AM but here you go.
I know the codes, and the material, I`m just missing the fancy truck.

Dave

Unknown

Wondering Doug?

Here`s the pic,, I know the codes & material, I`m just missing the fancy truck.
Is that what you wanted to see?
I`m not even getting into "pail" theorys.

Dave

Matt_67

636

I am a voting member of both the venting sub-com and the B 149 National Gas Code. This 636 certification was put through by the provinces with NO research on the properties of different plastics. ABS has a higher deformation temperature than pvc, 227 F. Sch 40 PVC and CPVC temperature limits are a function of pressure. Which is not the case with venting. If one would use pvc for a drain on a steam humidifier, the drain gets deformed. An ABS drain stays in shape. The problem with abs comes when the temperatures are exceeded. ABS will shrink and block the flue. This is why we required the 3 feet of visible pipe several years ago. There were hot water tanks that were defective and caused much higher flue temperatures than for which they were certified. The failures that were shown to us, were of improper instalation mainly old glue or hollow core.

The 636 pvc and cpvc are essentially the same as sch 40 pvc or cpvc. There are standards for the manufacture of pvc and cpvc pipes. The colour is different so as to be easily recognised. It also became a major profit provider for the first certified manufacturer. Pricing has now dropped.

Your failures look similar to some that I have seen due to expansion. Acidity is not an issue.The maximum acidity of condensate is near lemon juice.

hot_rod

PVC buckets?? are you sure

I think most all of those paint, glycol, tool, etc 5 gallon containers are HDPE high density polyethylene. At least according to the stamp on all of mine.

I argee plastics are generally used to handle acids, maybe it takes a certain blend or type.

PVC used onn swimming pool systems can get hard and brittle quicklyn if the chesistry is out of wack. Is it the ph or chlorine (ides)?

hr

Doug_7

Fractured 636 Question

Dave - Thanks for clarifing. It is just that no orange labels were apparent in the original photo - making me wonder if the fittings were really 636. No slight intended.

Is this problem due to thermal expansion ? Attached is thermal expansion for PVC and CPVC compared to steel. My 40 foot long flue moves at least an inch from cold to hot due to thermal expansion.

Piping design needs to allow for this large amount of thermal expansion. Even steel pipe requires expansion loops and PVC expands 5 times as much as steel and CPVC expands over 6 times as much as steel..

I don't have a fancy truck either - just trying to get to the answer with facts and data.

Doug

trevor pierce, London Boiler Service

Hi Dave

My reply wasn't an attack on you, or your work. I'm sorry if it sounded like that. I wasnt knocking a TT boiler either, there are many good boilers out there! I have become frustrated with one boiler company in particular that does require the CPVC but has decided to not write this in the literature and has told wholesalers PVC was OK. There are other boiler manufacturers that have 2 limits that can be changed so if the system temp is low you can use the lower temp limit and PVC, which makes sense to me. I think we will spend many years on the vening issues. And I dont know, we may be here talking about the latest venting like the ultravent years ago. My message was more to vent frustration because I had to change out vening on a few boilers that were new here and I hate to see customers pay twice, thats all. Sorry you took offence Dave, this wasn't directed at you in a negative way, I wouldn't do that it is very interesting to see isues, especially your fittings pictured we all have concerns about the venting. Hay, do you think a vapour was pulled through the combustion process? I had one that sucked in what I think was formaldihide fumes from spray foam insulation, hard to know but it turned the flame rod a real wierd grey within a week, I wonder if that could have happened on your job?

P.S. no, I didnt buy the new version of the B214-01, is it better? I find the IBR guides to be excellant, I have the B214-01 hooked inside my IBR guide to residential hydronic heating. The IBR guide is a 3 ring binder with about 2" of information, very very good book! I also have several of Dans books, excellant writer! I will give people pumping away to read instead of trying to explane it, thanks Dan! I have Speigenthalers guides also, did I spell that right?

Unknown

I apologize for,

"climbing-on" you Doug, but these Canadian TSSA codes are frustrating. Is there actually any research done prior to mandating?
I admire Trevor & yourself very much so,, but I do have a prob with "knee-jerk" mandates that accomplish nothing but hassels, and as I said,,,Enbridge can do NO WRONG,,,.

Dave

Doug_7

Thermal expansion ?

Dave - Do you think this problem is due to thermal expansion ?

I would like to know the cause.

Doug

Unknown

Me too Doug,

I think its just another bull@#&% reason for a code change in Canada that accomplishes nothing. Look at ABS,,, how long was that acceptable?, any one perish(hope not) anywhere because of this?

Dave

Dobber

Thermal expansion

Was at one of my GB installs today.The homeowner stated that the exhaust shifted about an 1".There is about a 40' horizontal run through the basement.I'm glad it wasn't ABS it probably would have moved 3".

Dobber